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Author Topic: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)  (Read 9463 times)

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Offline WiFiJeff

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DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« on: April 30, 2007, 03:07:55 PM »
Anybody got news about a cardioid 406x?

Thanks!

It hasnt been released yet. They have released full body versions of the 4060/4061 though, and rumours are that the mini card is near..

Bruce Myers was reportedly showing some demos of the DPA4080 a couple of weeks ago.  He is really excited about them, and I am salivating.  They are the first in a new series of micro cardioids, and might be released by the end of the year, with other versions to follow.  Not like the head-worn one from a few years ago with a 1" proximity effect bass roll-off, more of a lapel mic, the later models to have a roll-off distance similar to 1/2" diameter series.  But even this 4080 is supposed to blow away other cardioid minis.  Pricing not determined but of the order of magnitude of 4060s, as you'd expect.  Will work with the MMA6000.

The line forms right here, behind me.

Jeff

(anyone know how Peluso is doing on micro-cardioids?)

Offline thegreatgumbino

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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2007, 03:22:08 PM »
So do I understand this correctly that they will be the same size as the 4060's?
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Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2007, 03:23:23 PM »
So do I understand this correctly that they will be the same size as the 4060's?

I think he described them as looking like wee tiny shotguns, so maybe a bit longer.

Jeff

Offline thegreatgumbino

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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2007, 03:25:27 PM »
Interesting.  I wonder how they'll compare to the 402x series?

Edit to add:  I meant in regards to size & sonic qualities.  If they sound even close (or are comparable to the 4060's in quality) it wouldn't be bad to have a pair of the 4060 & 4080 in the arsenal & much cheaper than the 402x series.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2007, 03:39:08 PM by thegreatgumbino »
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Offline johnw

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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2007, 03:25:59 PM »
Hmm now do I hold out on getting new mics for a few more months?   :-\  :hmmm:
« Last Edit: April 30, 2007, 04:51:02 PM by johnw »
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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2007, 03:35:44 PM »
...The line forms right here, behind me.
...

Oooo. Camping out in line..
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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2007, 05:16:11 PM »
I leg wrassle anyone to get to the front of the line (well, maybe after jeff). This is actually kind of c0ol!

lets go!
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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2007, 05:28:39 PM »
good news, no doubt about it, but I personally wish they would spend their r&d dollars on a pair of hypercardoid caps, that would be of substantial interest to me, maybe something like the 4023 with lemo connectors so we could own both card and hypercard caps and use the same active cables

Offline JD

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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2007, 01:09:24 AM »
So do I understand this correctly that they will be the same size as the 4060's?

I think he described them as looking like wee tiny shotguns, so maybe a bit longer.

Jeff

Sweet, I've been waiting for these! ;D
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Offline Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)

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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2007, 01:15:13 AM »
interesting. very interesting.
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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2007, 02:07:10 AM »
So, OK, what's the story?  Two years ago they were to be released at the end of the year.  I Google "DPA 4080" and get nothing.  Who's got 'em in their basement and is not sharing???      8)
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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2007, 04:36:08 AM »
good news, no doubt about it, but I personally wish they would spend their r&d dollars on a pair of hypercardoid caps, that would be of substantial interest to me, maybe something like the 4023 with lemo connectors so we could own both card and hypercard caps and use the same active cables

I thought that DPA has stated that they won't make a hyper because of the inherent coloration of the pattern
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Offline WiFiJeff

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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2007, 08:55:25 AM »
So, OK, what's the story?  Two years ago they were to be released at the end of the year.  I Google "DPA 4080" and get nothing.  Who's got 'em in their basement and is not sharing???      8)

Two years ago they released a cardioid for head-worn, inch-from-the-mouth use, very fast bass roll-off, not suitable for concert taping.  The 4080 is coming at the end of this year, I'm not surprised there is nothing to google yet.

Jeff

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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2007, 10:14:32 AM »
good news, no doubt about it, but I personally wish they would spend their r&d dollars on a pair of hypercardoid caps, that would be of substantial interest to me, maybe something like the 4023 with lemo connectors so we could own both card and hypercard caps and use the same active cables

I thought that DPA has stated that they won't make a hyper because of the inherent coloration of the pattern

yep, exactly.  they said that a microphone that is as directional as a hypercard goes against their goal, which is natural, transparent sounding microphones

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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2007, 11:37:57 AM »
good news, no doubt about it, but I personally wish they would spend their r&d dollars on a pair of hypercardoid caps, that would be of substantial interest to me, maybe something like the 4023 with lemo connectors so we could own both card and hypercard caps and use the same active cables

I thought that DPA has stated that they won't make a hyper because of the inherent coloration of the pattern

yep, exactly.  they said that a microphone that is as directional as a hypercard goes against their goal, which is natural, transparent sounding microphones

For those that do not share this goal, I heard of a brand called Schoeps that will fit your needs.   ;)     ;D 
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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2007, 04:22:31 PM »
good news, no doubt about it, but I personally wish they would spend their r&d dollars on a pair of hypercardoid caps, that would be of substantial interest to me, maybe something like the 4023 with lemo connectors so we could own both card and hypercard caps and use the same active cables

I thought that DPA has stated that they won't make a hyper because of the inherent coloration of the pattern

yep, exactly.  they said that a microphone that is as directional as a hypercard goes against their goal, which is natural, transparent sounding microphones

For those that do not share this goal, I heard of a brand called Schoeps that will fit your needs.   ;)     ;D 

actually it will not fit my particular needs, I like transparent mics and I'm not a huge fan of the Schoeps coloration, if I had to choose between DPA cards and Schoeps hypers I'd stick with the DPA's

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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2007, 08:58:01 AM »
3rd in line!  If these come out and they are all the rage, i'll definiely ditch my sp mics and hop on these (if their stealth friendly).
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Offline DSatz

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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2007, 01:13:28 AM »
I sense that words such as "coloration" and "transparent" are being lent special meanings here so that DPA's statements will seem to make sense. But other manufacturers proved long ago that a super- or hyper-cardioid microphone can be transparent and uncolored sounding. It isn't only small condenser microphones such as Schoeps; the Beyer M 160 ribbon microphone is a very transparent sounding hypercardioid, for example. For that matter, the super- or hypercardioid setting of a Neumann TLM 170 is rather neutral sounding; I've made some very nice vocal recordings with it. Its minor shortcomings in the upper midrange are just as evident in the microphone's other settings, so there's no special curse on the one pattern.

If a neutral-sounding super- or hypercardioid is unachievable, then a figure-8 ought to be even more so. Yet Royer and (especially) Coles don't seem to have gotten the message, since their figure-8 ribbon microphones are highly prized for their sonic transparency. The Beyer M 130, likewise.

It's a myth, people; let it go. Some day DPA will introduce a nice supercardioid; will everyone simply act as if they never said the things they've said in this thread? I wonder.

--best regards
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 02:25:45 PM by DSatz »
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Offline DSatz

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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2007, 11:39:50 AM »
Moke, many thanks for your forthright reply. There are plenty of people who love what a good pair of omni (pressure) mikes can do; the recorded sound just feels like nothing else, if they're used well in a good-sounding space. I know that, and can sympathize completely from direct experience.

But as a factual matter, super- or hypercardioid microphones aren't shotgun (interference tube) microphones. You seem to blur the two categories together--obviously you don't care for either of them--but they're distinctly different and both have their uses, even if that un-includes you.

Many people have the same complaint that you seem to have about the sound of shotguns, especially the longer ones. Their off-axis frequency response can be extremely uneven--somehow managing to be both spitty and muffled-sounding at the same time. But you seem to be tarring some very good super- and hypercardioids with that same brush, and that's simply mistaken.

I don't expect or necessarily even want to influence your opinion, but I do want to set the basic facts straight for the sake of the other folks who read these threads.

--best regards
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 02:18:45 PM by DSatz »
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2007, 12:31:32 PM »
Moke, many thanks for your forthright reply. There are plenty of people who love what a good pair of omni (pressure) mikes can do; the recorded sound just feels like nothing else, if they're used well in a good-sounding space. I know that, and can sympathize completely from direct experience.

But as a factual matter, super- or hypercardioid microphones aren't shotgun (interference tube) microphones. You seem to blur the two categories together--obviously you don't care for either of them--but they're distinctly different from one another, and both have their uses even if that un-includes you.

Many people have the same complaint that you seem to have about the sound of shotguns, especially the longer ones. Their off-axis frequency response can be extremely uneven--somehow managing to be both spitty and muffled-sounding at the same time. But you seem to be tarring some very good super- and hypercardioids with that same brush, and that's simply mistaken.

I don't expect or necessarily even want to influence your opinion, but I do want to set the basic facts straight for the sake of the other folks who read these threads.

--best regards

In all fairness I am 100% positive Moke knows the difference between cardioid hyper cardioid and interference tube microphones ( shotgun ) I think what he is saying is there was always before 1989 as far as he was concerned a lack of quality sound reproduction with any directional microphone. And you can place cardioid and hyper cardioid and I-T microphones in the same category they are all directional microphones. They all use some sort of phase cancellation, or phase plugs, or wave guides to achieve directionality. But they all share one major point that Moke was trying to make they all are directional some range from Semi to very directional but they are all part of the same branch of the microphone tree :) I have never liked I.T mics because I have never in my life heard one that sounded natural. But that's just me.. I respect your opinion you seem to know exactly what your talking about. There are others here that know exactly what they are talking about Moke is one of them.

Just my two cents.

Chris
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Offline DSatz

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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2007, 01:58:13 PM »
Chris, again thanks. Even if I thought that Moke didn't know what he was talking about (which isn't what I thought), I like how he writes and I can fully sympathize with his opinions. It seems as if a lot of folks, either consciously or unconsciously, don't quite consider a microphone to be professional-quality unless it's a cardioid. Moke has no such prejudice, and it's great to see.

But no good-sounding directional microphones prior to 1989? That's a new one. I'm better acquainted with folks who think that the microphone manufacturers all lost their way during the 1960s--the folks who keep looking for the world to bring back the original Neumann U 47 and M 49, the AKG C 12 or the Telefunken Ela M 250 and M 251. Even a U 67 is too well-behaved and "hi-fi" sounding for some of these people. Everything needs to have a large, dual-diaphragm capsule, a vacuum tube of course, and the proverbial "beefy" output transformer (optimal type of beef unknown at present). Their most fervent fantasy would be to own a time machine so that they could travel back and scoop up an armload of "vintage" microphones straight from the factory shelves. There's no telling what might happen next--perhaps nude rituals of some kind.

Anyway, much as I respect DPA, I'd bet a Euro that their line about supercardioids and lack of transparency was tailor-made for the U.S. market and the beliefs that circulate over here. If the chief engineer of a European broadcasting organization were to ask DPA about a possible supercardioid microphone, surely the reply would be on a rather different level. The fact is that it is extremely difficult for a manufacturer to develop a really good supercardioid microphone; quite a substantial commitment of time and resources would be required. This wouldn't necessarily be a good business proposition for DPA at present, since many people still think of them as at least a semi-branch of Brüel & Kjær--and so they think of measurement microphones, i.e. omnis.

If DPA were to broaden their offerings too far, they might compromise the seeming purity of their original appeal as I think Moke's reaction illustrates rather vividly. Customers become strongly attached to their image of a brand as if it were a moral cause. Again I know this from first-hand experience, and I should be the last to judge anyone else for it. But over long periods of time any given company's stance can change quite a bit.

--best regards
« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 02:26:38 PM by DSatz »
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2007, 02:48:51 PM »
Chris, again thanks. Even if I thought that Moke didn't know what he was talking about (which isn't what I thought), I like how he writes and I can fully sympathize with his opinions. It seems as if a lot of folks, either consciously or unconsciously, don't quite consider a microphone to be professional-quality unless it's a cardioid. Moke has no such prejudice, and it's great to see.

But no good-sounding directional microphones prior to 1989? That's a new one. I'm better acquainted with folks who think that the microphone manufacturers all lost their way during the 1960s--the folks who keep looking for the world to bring back the original Neumann U 47 and M 49, the AKG C 12 or the Telefunken Ela M 250 and M 251. Even a U 67 is too well-behaved and "hi-fi" sounding for some of these people. Everything needs to have a large, dual-diaphragm capsule, a vacuum tube of course, and the proverbial "beefy" output transformer (optimal type of beef unknown at present). Their most fervent fantasy would be to own a time machine so that they could travel back and scoop up an armload of "vintage" microphones straight from the factory shelves. There's no telling what might happen next--perhaps nude rituals of some kind.

Anyway, much as I respect DPA, I'd bet a Euro that their line about supercardioids and lack of transparency was tailor-made for the U.S. market and the beliefs that circulate over here. If the chief engineer of a European broadcasting organization were to ask DPA about a possible supercardioid microphone, surely the reply would be on a rather different level. The fact is that it is extremely difficult for a manufacturer to develop a really good supercardioid microphone; quite a substantial commitment of time and resources would be required. This wouldn't necessarily be a good business proposition for DPA at present, since many people still think of them as at least a semi-branch of Brüel & Kjær--and so they think of measurement microphones, i.e. omnis.

If DPA were to broaden their offerings too far, they might compromise the seeming purity of their original appeal as I think Moke's reaction illustrates rather vividly. Customers become strongly attached to their image of a brand as if it were a moral cause. Again I know this from first-hand experience, and I should be the last to judge anyone else for it. But over long periods of time any given company's stance can change quite a bit.

--best regards

I have often dreamed of picking up a few mics in the "time machine" my self but knowing what I know about ageing of tubes and electronics and mic capsules. Is the sound we are in love with the sound of the original microphone as it was when new or is it the aged sound we have come to know so well I have used extensively the Ela 250 and u47 and I have used a few c12's I have found that they all sound different to my ears we are not talking huge differences but surly these differences are the tolerance of the components used and or age.

So I agree that a lot of mic companies have "lost the way" but there are a few still that do make a good product. I think DPA is among them if for anything just because they make such a good lav mic. The 4060 is  truly an amazing microphone. I dont think there is any other microphone in its class that even comes close. I also think that some of the Chinese mics are pretty good too.. But I think that's more by accident then by design. As they are mostly trying to copy the "old ones"

I think DPA/B&K have the most advanced audio testing gear on the planet. The hardest thing to do is test a microphone... There are many theories about it, I think DPA has got it down. Testing a microphone is half the battle once you can reliably test a microphones response, you can then reliably design a microphone and see the changes in real time.. That is something the smaller microphone companies have not invested enough in.

I also feel there is more to building a microphone then "lab tests" Neumann had people that were trained to listen to microphones with there ears... They would reject any microphone that was not up to the high standards of Neumann. These days are gone.. Thanks to high volume sales. I know I kind of took this conversation off into another dimension, I have a habit of doing that but I rarely get to talk to someone that knows as much as you do about the subject. Its definitely an interesting one.

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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2007, 04:50:12 PM »
Great discussion. I'd like to dig a little deeper since this touches on somethings I've been thinking about recently.  Keep in mind that I'm talking about the type of recording done around here (on-location audience music recordings) though I feel my thoughts apply to ambient soundscape type recording as well, but not studio recording or sound reinforcement applications such as close mic'ing instruments or voices.

What I want to ask is why do those directional patterns sound 'off', closed-in, or otherwise unnatural to many people?  Is it related to the basic nature of directional pickup itself?  Or is it because the frequency response of 'real world' directional microphones varies too much as you move around the polar pattern, since most all of them reject more of certain frequencies than others at points off-axis? 

I'm a less experienced recordist than many here, yet for the applications that this forum focuses on, I also have a generally strong preference for the sound of omni directional mics over directional patterns.  On-axis frequency range issues aside, omnis's just sound more natural to me and closer to what live music in a actual space sounds like.  When I compare similar quality cardioid/super/hyper directional mics in the  same recording situation with omni's I immediately notice the 'closed in' feeling and the sonic impression seems to flatten and have less depth and dimensional space.  The clarity can be useful of course, but it just doesn't sound as 'live' or 'there' to me.  In some ways I've come to regard directional microphones as more of a 'necessary evil', developed to make the best of a sub-par situation when omni's may not work well - their value primarily that of being a tool able to 'make up' somewhat for situations where omnidirectional microphones cannot not provide the desired qualities - instead of providing 'positive value' on their own accord. (I'm excluding applications where proximity effect or directionality for multi-mic'ing could be used to advantage).  I do recognize that directional mics can improve aspects that can be lacking with omni mic techniques.  For example, in my experience with stereo AUD recordings of acoustic music, bass and piano can often sound less defined and present than other instruments when recording with omnis and those qualities can be improved with directional mics that can, perhaps unnaturally, focus on those more diffuse radiating instruments and improve those aspects of the recording.  Of course, reducing the contribution of yapping chatterboxes and the reberberant swamp of echoy bars can be more important than a 'big', 'deep', 'open' sounding recording.  When forced to compensate for something like that, directional mics can be a good choice and yield a better overall results. Yet I rarely find the trade-off between real sounding depth and ambiance vs. a tighter more present and up-front sound a completely satisfying one.
 
I make an exception for fig-8's in Blumlein and I take that as a clue.  Blumlein is unique and seems to escape the criticism of other directional pattens, perhaps for a few reasons. First, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems most fig-8 patterns have less frequency variation far off-axis than other directional patterns. Second, I'd think the symmetrical bi-directional nature of the fig-8 pattern and the symmetrical front/back aspect of the 90 degree stereo configuration both help distribute any off-axis frequency response errors more evenly around the full 360 degree pattern.  It also tends to be more difficult to use in less than good sounding environments, which strikes me as an obvious similarity to omnidirectional stereo configurations.

By (a possibly mistaken) analogy.. In loudspeaker design, off-axis level response at all points around the speakers is measured as 'polar power response' and there are proponents and studies that argue convincingly for designing loudspeakers that have a more even power response (not necessarily absolute level response) as you move around the speaker from the front, to the side, to the back, to the other side and back to the front.  In this way of thinking, if the speaker measures flat on axis, it should measure pretty much flat at all angles off axis, if the level changes or not.  That would make the speaker's output when charted as a polar plot look alot like good microphone polar plots.  In the real world this design goal usually means designing a speaker to be omni-directional or dipolar throughout it's range, providing circular or fig-8 polar shaped responses at all frequencies.  The thinking is that all the sound emanating from the speaker cabinet fills the room, not just the direct sound from the speaker drivers.. especially the diffuse reverb component of the music.  Box speakers more directional a high frequencies than low ones, and the directionality of drivers changes with frequency as well, so although a speaker may measure well on-axis, it likely won't off-axis.  Trying to treat the room to reduce the contribution of the unbalanced off-axis sound emanating towards the side and rear of the speaker is mostly effective at higher frequencies which are the very frequencies that are more attenuated off-axis to begin with.  Making those treatments effective at low frequencies leads to a room starting to vaguely resemble an anechoic chamber - not a particularly satisfying listening environment.

So if trying to design a good sounding hyper-cardioid mic, is it a question of getting the off-axis frequency response to match the on-axis response accurately enough, is the problem inherent to the general directional level imbalance of stereo mic'ing configurations using two hyper-cardioid mics, or something else entirely?
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2007, 05:07:10 PM »
Great discussion. I'd like to dig a little deeper since this touches on somethings I've been thinking about recently.  Keep in mind that I'm talking about the type of recording done around here (on-location audience music recordings) though I feel my thoughts apply to ambient soundscape type recording as well, but not studio recording or sound reinforcement applications such as close mic'ing instruments or voices.

What I want to ask is why do those directional patterns sound 'off', closed-in, or otherwise unnatural to many people?  Is it related to the basic nature of directional pickup itself?  Or is it because the frequency response of 'real world' directional microphones varies too much as you move around the polar pattern, since most all of them reject more of certain frequencies than others at points off-axis? 

I'm a less experienced recordist than many here, yet for the applications that this forum focuses on, I also have a generally strong preference for the sound of omni directional mics over directional patterns.  On-axis frequency range issues aside, omnis's just sound more natural to me and closer to what live music in a actual space sounds like.  When I compare similar quality cardioid/super/hyper directional mics in the  same recording situation with omni's I immediately notice the 'closed in' feeling and the sonic impression seems to flatten and have less depth and dimensional space.  The clarity can be useful of course, but it just doesn't sound as 'live' or 'there' to me.  In some ways I've come to regard directional microphones as more of a 'necessary evil', developed to make the best of a sub-par situation when omni's may not work well - their value primarily that of being a tool able to 'make up' somewhat for situations where omnidirectional microphones cannot not provide the desired qualities - instead of providing 'positive value' on their own accord. (I'm excluding applications where proximity effect or directionality for multi-mic'ing could be used to advantage).  I do recognize that directional mics can improve aspects that can be lacking with omni mic techniques.  For example, in my experience with stereo AUD recordings of acoustic music, bass and piano can often sound less defined and present than other instruments when recording with omnis and those qualities can be improved with directional mics that can, perhaps unnaturally, focus on those more diffuse radiating instruments and improve those aspects of the recording.  Of course, reducing the contribution of yapping chatterboxes and the reberberant swamp of echoy bars can be more important than a 'big', 'deep', 'open' sounding recording.  When forced to compensate for something like that, directional mics can be a good choice and yield a better overall results. Yet I rarely find the trade-off between real sounding depth and ambiance vs. a tighter more present and up-front sound a completely satisfying one.
 
I make an exception for fig-8's in Blumlein and I take that as a clue.  Blumlein is unique and seems to escape the criticism of other directional pattens, perhaps for a few reasons. First, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems most fig-8 patterns have less frequency variation far off-axis than other directional patterns. Second, I'd think the symmetrical bi-directional nature of the fig-8 pattern and the symmetrical front/back aspect of the 90 degree stereo configuration both help distribute any off-axis frequency response errors more evenly around the full 360 degree pattern.  It also tends to be more difficult to use in less than good sounding environments, which strikes me as an obvious similarity to omnidirectional stereo configurations.

By (a possibly mistaken) analogy.. In loudspeaker design, off-axis level response at all points around the speakers is measured as 'polar power response' and there are proponents and studies that argue convincingly for designing loudspeakers that have a more even power response (not necessarily absolute level response) as you move around the speaker from the front, to the side, to the back, to the other side and back to the front.  In this way of thinking, if the speaker measures flat on axis, it should measure pretty much flat at all angles off axis, if the level changes or not.  That would make the speaker's output when charted as a polar plot look alot like good microphone polar plots.  In the real world this design goal usually means designing a speaker to be omni-directional or dipolar throughout it's range, providing circular or fig-8 polar shaped responses at all frequencies.  The thinking is that all the sound emanating from the speaker cabinet fills the room, not just the direct sound from the speaker drivers.. especially the diffuse reverb component of the music.  Box speakers more directional a high frequencies than low ones, and the directionality of drivers changes with frequency as well, so although a speaker may measure well on-axis, it likely won't off-axis.  Trying to treat the room to reduce the contribution of the unbalanced off-axis sound emanating towards the side and rear of the speaker is mostly effective at higher frequencies which are the very frequencies that are more attenuated off-axis to begin with.  Making those treatments effective at low frequencies leads to a room starting to vaguely resemble an anechoic chamber - not a particularly satisfying listening environment.

So if trying to design a good sounding hyper-cardioid mic, is it a question of getting the off-axis frequency response to match the on-axis response accurately enough, is the problem inherent to the general directional level imbalance of stereo mic'ing configurations using two hyper-cardioid mics, or something else entirely?
Better quality mics have smoother off axis response. But when your talking about a interference tube mic the real goal is to increase directionality at all costs, that's when the off axis response gets ugly.. The thing about directional microphones is they all use some form of phase cancellation to achieve directionality this in and of it self creates a colored sound.. But its the price that has to be paid for directionality. Companies like DPA / B&K and many others have found ways to make this off axis response smooth. How they do this is by engineering the back chamber of the capsule by "tuning" this chamber behind the mic capsule you can control to a large degree how well the mic will perform off axis. Take a look at B&K cardioid's the mic capsule housings are works of art. They are designed to evenly defuse the sound arriving at the front and back of the capsule in such a way as to minimize coloration of the reproduction of the sound they pickup.


So imo the most important part of a directional microphone is whats behind the capsule if your looking for good of axis response. Take a look at some cardioid mics look at the different patterns they use for back vents. Some use slits some use holes some use a combination.. Some like B&K use a diffuser.

When you talk about loudspeaker off axis response your talking about the shape of the baffle and the way the drive is loaded into the baffle and the shape of the speaker cabinet. You also have to look at the drives off axis response. And the room the speaker is placed in.. All of these things effect speaker response. But in the end there are many similarities..

In an omnidirectional microphone its all about what the body of the microphone is shaped like to a large degree, like the speaker cabinet. So yes there are direct links between the two imo..

If you matched the off axis response of a hyper cardioid mic with the on axis response you would not have a hyper cardioid mic you would have an omni :) So there always has to be differences but.. If you can make the off axis response smoother. Then you can minimize the perceived poor sound quality of the microphone in question. So pay attention to what is behind the microphone too not just whats in front of it. You can change the sound of a microphone by introducing a boundary behind the mic.. You also have to look at the position of the vents when placing two cardioid mics side by side to minimize the interaction between the two pairs..

This all comes down to making sure the level each mic is putting out in a stereo pair be exactly the same so you can accurately capture the acoustic image of where the mic was placed during the recording process.

Chris


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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2007, 05:45:13 PM »
It's a myth, people; let it go. Some day DPA will introduce a nice supercardioid; will everyone simply act as if they never said the things they've said in this thread? I wonder.

--best regards


all I said was that DPA told me they wouldn't do it because it wouldn't have the sound they like.  that's what I was told, so yes, if DPA ever comes out with a hyper, i'll still say it   :P

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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2007, 06:18:51 PM »
...
If you matched the off axis response of a hyper cardioid mic with the on axis response you would not have a hyper cardioid mic you would have an omni :) ...

No, you've misundestood what I'm saying. I'm talking about matching the shape of the response curve at all angles around the capsule.  In otherwords, shooting to make the shape of the polar plot identical for all frequencies.. a hypercardioid that acts identically at every frequency, but varies in level depending on angle of incidence.

But more importantly, you're missing the forest for the trees in my post, Chris.  although I'm not familiar with all the technicalities involved, I do understand how the directional effect is produced using the methods you cite.  I also understand that engineering and building a directional mic that has identically shaped polar plots for it's entire frequency range is a herculean and perhaps impossible task.

If a 'perfect' hypercardioid (meaning one with an ideal polar response at all frequencies) existed, would it still sound 'colored'?

-or asked another way-

Is that 'color' an aspect of the pattern itself, or of the imperfections inherent in engineering and manufacturing such a complex device?
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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2007, 06:42:18 PM »
Quote from: Moke link=topic=83795.msg1116243#msg1116243
I've been breaking up brickwork and sidewalk with a 10# hammer, all day
aaacckKKK! :crazy:

This nine pound hammer
Is a little too heavy
For my size
For my size


(or perhaps you prefer a bigger one..)

Well, John Henry was a little baby
Sittin' on his dady's knee
He picked up a hammer and a little piece of steel,
Said, "Hammer's gonna be the death of me, Lord, Lord
Hammer's gonna be the death of me"

...
John Henry said to his shaker
"Shaker, why don't you sing?"
'Cause I'm swigin' thirty pounds from my hips on down
Yeah, listen to my cold steel ring, Lord, Lord
Listen to my cold steel ring'

 ;)
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Offline DSatz

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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2007, 01:26:11 AM »
Hi. A couple of notes:

- Hardly anyone makes an actual hypercardioid microphone; most microphones that are called either "hypercardioid" or "supercardioid" are actually something between the two, with the great majority being closer to supercardioid. This includes Schoeps, Neumann, AKG and almost everyone else. You can tell by the angle where the null occurs, and also by the sensitivity of the rear lobe as compared with that of the front lobe.

- A hypercardioid or supercardioid is quite different from an interference tube ("shotgun") microphone. I said this the other night and people said, oh, yeah, sure, of course we know the difference--but then right away here, I see more talk that just lumps them together as if they were the same thing with the same sonic defects. Sorry, it's a very basic error to do that.

This comes up in the discussion of using phase cancellation for directional effect. Some of what's been said about that in this thread is--I'm sorry to say--complete nonsense. All directional microphones, regardless of their pattern or operating mechanism (i.e. including the very lovely, very talented DPA cardioids and wide cardioids) use that principle to achieve their directionality.

Since I think most people here are willing to concede the existence of at least some good-sounding directional microphones (e.g. the aforementioned DPA cardioids and wide cardioids, but also other non-slouchy things such as U 47s, C 12s, KM 84s and yes, directional microphones from Schoeps), clearly this principle does not lead inexorably to bad-sounding microphones; something else must be involved.

--Chris, as you move from a pure pressure (omnidirectional) transducer toward a pure pressure-gradient transducer, the frequency response curves at the various angles of sound incidence become more similar to each other, not less! If a pure pressure-gradient microphone's on-axis response is smooth, then the same will generally be true of its off-axis response--and there will also tend to be a general similarity between that microphone's 0-degree response (free field) and its diffuse-field response.

Since pure pressure gradient microphones are inherently bidirectional, this tendency toward having similar frequency response at various angles applies most of all to figure-8 microphones, but also to hyper- and supercardioids (their next-door neighbors on the Great Spectrum of Patterns that crosses our sky like the Milky Way) (mmm, Milky Way ...). That is true to a far greater extent than it is, say, with cardioids or most omnis. In your message it seemed to me that you might be imagining this set of relationships the other way around. Again, the closer a microphone's pattern is to a figure-8, in general the more its off-axis response will resemble its on-axis response, all other things being equal. So that's a big plus for hyper- and supercardioids.

Of course as Gutbucket points out, with directional microphones the sensitivity at various angles of incidence will differ--that's what a directional pattern is! But Gut is also saying something else fundamentally important: A microphone with the same directional pattern at all frequencies (i.e. with a directional pattern that is independent of frequency) logically must have the same frequency response at all angles of sound incidence. Those two ideal qualities are really just one quality as observed from two different vantage points.

That ideal can only be approximated in reality, but good small supercardioids come much closer to it than many people seem to realize, while typical studio cardioids deviate from it far more than many people seem to realize.

--best regards
« Last Edit: May 08, 2007, 09:12:00 AM by DSatz »
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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2007, 08:27:06 AM »
...the closer a microphone's pattern is to a figure-8, in general the more its off-axis response will resemble its on-axis response, all other things being equal. So that's a big plus for hyper- and supercardioids...

Ahhh. Very interesting.  Thank you!
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2007, 10:02:38 AM »
--Chris, as you move from a pure pressure (omnidirectional) transducer toward a pure pressure-gradient transducer, the frequency response curves at the various angles of sound incidence become more similar to each other, not less! If a pure pressure-gradient microphone's on-axis response is smooth, then the same will generally be true of its off-axis response--and there will also tend to be a general similarity between that microphone's 0-degree response (free field) and its diffuse-field response.

I disagree its very hard to make a cardioid mic that has changes in off axis amplitude with out changing the timbre of the sound off axis. So how can they be even close to each other... Take a cardioid make and talk behind it.. It does not sound like 0 degrees to me... :) I guess we have to agree to disagree on that point. By the way I was actually not saying that any other company used different methods other then phase cancellation to achieve a directional microphone.. I was actually saying that many companies use different methods "mechanical" methods to achieve this phase cancellation. And that these different methods have different results and different amounts of off axis coloration.. Take any cardioid mic and talk off axis it does not sound nearly as smooth as a good omnidirectional microphone..

Chris
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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2007, 10:32:43 AM »
I sense that words such as "coloration" and "transparent" are being lent special meanings here so that DPA's statements will seem to make sense. But other manufacturers proved long ago that a super- or hyper-cardioid microphone can be transparent and uncolored sounding. It isn't only small condenser microphones such as Schoeps; the Beyer M 160 ribbon microphone is a very transparent sounding hypercardioid, for example. For that matter, the super- or hypercardioid setting of a Neumann TLM 170 is rather neutral sounding; I've made some very nice vocal recordings with it. Its minor shortcomings in the upper midrange are just as evident in the microphone's other settings, so there's no special curse on the one pattern.

I think one needs to consider the application also, when recording using a stereo pair in the far-field (concert field recording situations which is what most of the people here are doing) IMHO hypercardioid and shotguns sound brighter/thinner and tend to feel "tunnel-ly", for lack of a better term. I would think for near-field recording with spot mics this would not be an issue. I have not heard recordings using figure 8 capsules or blumlein so I can't comment on the bass response in that case.







« Last Edit: May 08, 2007, 10:43:19 AM by BC »
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2007, 10:40:17 AM »
I sense that words such as "coloration" and "transparent" are being lent special meanings here so that DPA's statements will seem to make sense. But other manufacturers proved long ago that a super- or hyper-cardioid microphone can be transparent and uncolored sounding. It isn't only small condenser microphones such as Schoeps; the Beyer M 160 ribbon microphone is a very transparent sounding hypercardioid, for example. For that matter, the super- or hypercardioid setting of a Neumann TLM 170 is rather neutral sounding; I've made some very nice vocal recordings with it. Its minor shortcomings in the upper midrange are just as evident in the microphone's other settings, so there's no special curse on the one pattern.

I think one needs to consider the application also, when recording in the far-field (concert field recording situations which is what most of the people here are doing) IMHO hypercardioid and shotguns sound brighter/thinner and tend to feel "tunnel-ly", for lack of a better term. I have not heard recordings using figure 8 capsules or blumlein so I can't comment on the bass response in that case.







figure 8 does sound great when your directly in front or directly behind the front capsule.. its when you get between the two capsules that things start to change.. So even figure 8 has its off axis coloration. To a lesser degree then cardioid but its still there.
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Re: DPA Cardioids (or, Nirvana)
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2007, 01:58:18 PM »
freelunch, watch out--you've got the curves there for the MK 4 axial cardioid, but your supercardioid curves are those of the MK 41 V, which is a side-addressed capsule. The curves aren't the same as the ones for the normal MK 41.

Your point is still evident, but not quite as clearly as it would be if you compared either two axial capsules or two radial capsules.

--best regards

[edited later to add:] Excellent, you fixed it.

As an even more clear-cut example, attached are polar diagrams for the three pattern settings of a Neumann U 87A, scanned from Catalog 140 (published in 1991). The 16 kHz graphs of all three patterns are almost identically narrow, but apart from that the figure-8 has essentially the same polar pattern at all frequencies, while the cardioid is distinctly wider on the bottom and narrower on the top than it is at, say, 1 kHz.

Problems in the pattern of an omnidirectional microphone generally show up at high frequencies. This one has that odd "propellor-shaped" response which large dual-diaphragm microphones so often show when synthesizing an omni pattern, plus at 90 degrees (and presumably 270 as well) it has a distinct 2 kHz bump. This is definitely not a nice, small pressure transducer.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2007, 08:20:52 PM by DSatz »
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