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Author Topic: Advanced Audio km84 "clone"  (Read 9387 times)

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Offline Six Toe

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Advanced Audio km84 "clone"
« on: July 01, 2014, 12:57:48 PM »
Saw this info on gearslutz.  I've been using a pair of km84's for a few years now and love them.  Looks like they cost about $400 each and come with 3 capsules. 

Thread here: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/937538-advanced-audio-251-a.html

It is from the owner in a thread about their other mics.  I know Oliver Archut is making a clone soon too, it is more expensive but nothing compared to used km84 prices.  http://www.tab-funkenwerk.com/id141.html

Anyone know of other clones for this mic? 


Snippet from AA thread:


We are also releasing our new CM1084 in two weeks. We have been working on a microphone to replace the venerable KM84 for several years. Over the last few years the capsule quality from Shanghai has been getting better and better.
We routinely offer to pay Shanghai more money for consistent sounding capsules and even all our 22mm pencil capsules are now run on the stand alone anechoic chamber before shipping to us.

We now have a good supply of very consistent 22mm capsules that have a very low profile head grill with no hf reflections. When I "kluged" this capsule onto a KM84 body VOILA!!! We got the "smooth" vintage sound of the KM84 response.

Our CM54 microphone has more "rise" in the 6-9khz range which is caused by the physics of building a 22mm capsule. Now, the CM54 is brighter sounding because it has a Shoep's transformerless output circuit and there is no high frequency compensation in the head amp plus the capsule has a grated surface like the C451 which tends to cause hf reflections and a "grainer" sound.

The KM84 circuit cleverly capitalizes on a "principle" of basic solid state and tube amplification to create a roll-off of the high frequency response which counters the rise in the KM84 capsule. Now, our CM1084 uses a 2 stage class "A" fet/discrete circuit and has less gain in the first stage than in the single stage Neumann circuit. So, we had to change some capacitor values to compensate. However, we end up with a microphone that has the signature "vintage" KM84 sound but with 14db more headroom than the KM84.

The CM1084 has a B (bright setting) V (km84 vintage response) -10db pad (km 84 setting padded -10db)

There is also a 75hz/150hz roll/out

The bright setting is very useful on single acoustic instruments that need to sit out in a busy mix or if the piano needs to poke out in a rock & roll mix. However, when you have the Martin D28 out on an acoustic featured ballad the KM84 could be a better choice. So, our CM1084 gives you this option at the flick of a switch. Also, when you are multi-miking an orchestra the 6-9khz rise will build up and the flatter response setting with yield a nicer response for classical recordings.

However, if you are recording strings for a Metallica ballad then you might to record it with the enhanced high end response???

So, the CM1084 will give you those option and comes with an OMNI, CARD and SuperCARD capsule for $395.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2014, 12:59:38 PM by Six Toe »

Marshall7

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Re: Advanced Audio km84 "clone"
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2014, 07:41:54 PM »
I have their CM54's, and like them a lot

Offline Fried Chicken Boy

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Re: Advanced Audio km84 "clone"
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2014, 10:54:59 PM »
Marking thread.  If it lives up to the claims, this CM1084 sounds like a great deal.

Offline DSatz

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Re: Advanced Audio km84 "clone"
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2014, 06:47:17 PM »
The above statement about the KM 84 amplifier rolling off the high frequencies is simply untrue; there's no high frequency rolloff in the amplifier. The KM 84 was part of a group of three related models (KM 83, KM 84, KM 85) with the same amplifier and different, interchangeable capsules. In arrangements of that kind, the amplifier typically has flat audio frequency response while the various capsules determine the sonic character and directional pattern of whatever microphone you put together.

When an amplifier is wedded to one particular capsule type, then you can tailor its response to work with that capsule to produce a desired result. That's a whole other realm of microphone design--and it's the one that this person is evidently thinking in, since his amplifier has a switch to set the microphone's high-frequency profile (and one of those switch positions evidently tries to emulate the response of the KM 84).

But emulating a microphone isn't just a matter of matching its on-axis frequency response, unless all the users are willing to record exclusively in acoustically dead spaces. They can't get the same sound quality in most real-world applications unless they also duplicate all the other characteristics of the KM 84's capsule, including its response at various angles off-axis.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 07:51:50 AM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline aamicrophones

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Re: Advanced Audio km84 "clone"
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2014, 05:54:57 PM »
Hello Guys, that's what I assumed when I first saw the KM84 circuit in the late 70's.  I have attached the KM84 schematic for reference and it will appear once approved by Taperssection.

On first blush, I presumed that C2 a 4pf capacitor was acting like the 8pf capacitors that Rupert Neve used from the base of the transistor to ground in the EQ section of the 1073 to prevent RF interference.


This assumption led me early in my career to believe that the Neumann capsules were smoother and that Neumann had somehow "mechanically" smoothed out the rise in the upper midrange attributed to the physics of capsule design.

We had AKG 451 pencil microphones during my 20 year tenure at Ocean Sound Studios in Vancouver.  The original 451 were slightly brighter than the KM84 microphones which seemed as present but smoother.  However, in the days of tape machines we cherished the extra rise in the AKG 451 as it was always better to cut Highs that boast them in the mix.  Today with digital technology we have a much better signal to noise ratio and this is not so necessary.

Now, the AKG 451E had more headroom than the KM84 because of its class "A" emitter follower output stage so the typical 4db rise at 10khz of the capsule response would not negatively effect the headroom.  The AKG 451e uses a similar fet input circuit as the Neumann KM84 with no HF de-emphasis and less gain. 


Now, on closer examination of the KM84 circuit we find that C2 is placed between the output of the capsule (fet input capacitor) and the output of the 2n3819 fet.


When we analyze the circuit we find that the 2n3819 has an AV (gain) of 60.  The 2N3819 has an internal reverse capacitance from Gate to Drain of about 4pf with the capacitance of C2 paralleled across it yielding 8pf.

According to the "Miller Theorem" the internal reverse capacitance is multiplied by the voltage gain of the circuit which is about 60 with a typical 2n3819.


The “Miller Effect” is a constant in tube/fet circuit design and something one usually tries to avoid.  Microphone circuit designers like myself usually use circuits that reduce the “Miller Effect” like the CCDA circuit in our tube microphones.


However, it came to me when I was recently preparing a lecture on tube preamplifier design for SFU’s Acoustical Club that these very clever early 70’s Neumann engineers used this effect to their advantage in the KM84.


The Miller Effect will increase the apparent capacitance between gate and drain (CGD) of the drain loaded amplifier in direct relationship to the gain of the fet stage.

So, by selecting the value of C2 plus the internal capacitance of the fet which is multiplied by the gain of the circuit we can predict a high end roll-off at about the same rate that the capsule response is increasing.


Like Neumann the capsules must be skinned with 6 micron mylar to take advantage of the "Miller" enhanced roll-off effect falling in the right frequency range.  C2 plus the internal capacitance of 4pf times 60 will certainly roll out very high frequencies.



Now, our circuit has 1/10 the gain in the first stage as the KM84 as we use a 2 stage class “A” emitter follower and drive the transformer from a much lower output impedance.  There is 14db less loss in our lower ratio output transformer.

We increase the "C2" value in our circuit to compensate for the lower gain(less Miller effect) of our front end which yields 14db more headroom the the KM84.   

The Neumann Cardiod capsule on average measures about 36pf while ours seem to measure on average about 39pf.   So, we also take this into account.

The 36pf to 39pf of the capsule results in an output impedance of about 4 million ohms at 1khz and 400 million ohms at 100hz.

Our circuit is not a direct "copy" of the Neumann circuit but it will yield the same results with our 2 stage class "A" as the KM84 circuit by optimizing these capacitor values while retaining the increased headroom and low  output impedance of our circuit.

The emitter of the output transistor in our circuit has a 50 ohm impedance compared to the 10,000 ohm output impedance of the 2N3819 fet.

We also provide the option of switching this "de-emphasis" capacitor out retaining the 3-4db rise in the 9-12khz range.  Our friends who play Portuguese guitar love this rise on their instruments.



We have a perfect example of a working KM84 here in the shop and when we put it against our CM1084 in the "V" the differences are less than subtle at best.

Two CM1084 microphones are being used as we speak in conjunction with KM84 microphones by our good friends at Angel Studios in London, England to record a 40 piece orchestra.

The KM84 microphones have been workhorses of the Recording Industry since their introduction in the early 70's but now these venerable old microphones are now over 40 years old.

I have three KM84 microphones currently in my shop.  One of these is in perfect condition but the other two have compromised capsules from years of use and abuse.

Cheers, Dave Thomas
www.aamicrophones.com


Offline drewloo

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Re: Advanced Audio km84 "clone"
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2014, 10:28:50 AM »

Anyone know of other clones for this mic? 

Peluso also has a KM84-inspired mic:  http://www.pelusomicrophonelab.com/microphones/P-84.html

« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 06:07:03 AM by drewloo »

Offline DSatz

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Re: Advanced Audio km84 "clone"
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2014, 10:46:51 PM »
Jon, I have done this (via a Neumann MA 84 test head); the amplifier's frequency response is dead flat.

There is no general high-frequency rise in the KM 84 capsule, nor compensating rolloff in the amplifier. Rather, the capsule has a broad upper midrange hump followed by a narrow bump around 9 kHz. But neither elevation is more than about a dB; they're both very subtle, which is what made this model of microphone useful for so many things in its day (and the more recent versions rather less so).

Perhaps these people have the KM 84 confused with the U 87 and its predecessors (U 67, M 269), in which the amplifier really does correct by several dB (depending on the exact model) for the overly bright response of the capsule? At any rate there's a lot of bad information being passed off in this business, and all too many credulous people with their wallets at the ready.

My advice: If you want a KM 84, don't screw around; buy a damn KM 84. It's one of the best microphones Neumann has ever made. And since they made some ~60,000 of them, they're always available used from a variety of sources. If you have any doubt about the condition of the capsule, get a fresh replacement from Neumann; the new ones are as good as the old ones ever were. For that matter you can snag a used KM 83 or 85 at a somewhat lower price if you intend to replace the capsule (a KM 83 or KM 85 with a KK 84 capsule head on it IS a KM 84; the amplifiers of the three models were identical and interchangeable).

--Also, I'm very sorry to say, the gentleman mentioned earlier in the thread (Oliver Archut), who was said to have been working on a different KM 84 clone, died a few weeks ago.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 10:56:58 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

 

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