Topic: Allow clipping: Yes? No? Sometimes?

[Jeremy Lykins]

Is it ever okay to allow clipping?  I recorded a show a few days ago in a small bar and on some of the songs the drums and cymbals were much louder than the rest of the music, so I amplified everything and allowed over 4dB of clipping since it was just the cymbals and kick drum that were clipping.  It sounded okay on my computer, home stereo, and car stereo so I went ahead and uploaded the show, but was that wrong?  I probably could have amplified it even more and had more clipping (or just amplified it to 0dB with no clipping), but I was satisfied with what I had and I didn't want to screw it up too much.

show: http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=525882
mic placement: basically in front of the right stack at 7' with the right mic pointed forward and the left pointed toward the left stack


original .wav file:


closeup of original:


amplified:


closeup of amplified:

[vanark]

I've done it before with positive results, usually when it was clapping.

[willndmb]

that is going to be ok imo
if its a small line like the close up its usually so fast you can't hear it

[Kyle]

Some compression could work very well here. It would keep the cymbals/kick from going over, bring up the rest of the signal, and result in very decent levels for playback. I tend to shy away from compression on my live recordings but if it is used thoughtfully the results can be quite satisfactory.

[sanaka]

I'm thinking the vertical line in the closeup of your original is the cursor of your DAW software, not a loud sound spike? So your original recording did not in fact clip but when simply normalized, has lots of transients (the drums and cymbals) that are over-loud compared to the rest of the signal?

If so, it's okay, you can have the best of both worlds! I'd agree that the minor, short duration clipping you allowed is ok - ears are the best judge. However, a better approach would be hard limiting. At least that's what I would use in Audition. It allows you to boost the whole signal, but any peaks are limited to below clipping. Not sure what software that is you are running, but check if it has hard limiting and play around with it!

Peace,
Sanaka

[Brian Skalinder]

There are a few links to compression, limiting, and/or volume envelope in the stickied thread at the top of the Computer Recording forum that will help you raise overall levels without needing clipping.

[page]

Some compression could work very well here. It would keep the cymbals/kick from going over, bring up the rest of the signal, and result in very decent levels for playback. I tend to shy away from compression on my live recordings but if it is used thoughtfully the results can be quite satisfactory.

Personal opinion:
Compression > clipping

Neither are great, but chosing between the lesser of two evils. I've used some cheap equipment before that would pop if it encountered small bits of clipping so I'm personally sensitive to that when I'm doing work in post.

[anodyne33]

When I worked in a studio if you were looking at waveforms for clipping you'd have been laughed at.

If you can't hear it, and it's not bothering anybody else, forget it.

[Jeremy Lykins]

Thanks to everyone for the advice. 

I'm thinking the vertical line in the closeup of your original is the cursor of your DAW software, not a loud sound spike? So your original recording did not in fact clip but when simply normalized, has lots of transients (the drums and cymbals) that are over-loud compared to the rest of the signal?

Yes.

However, a better approach would be hard limiting.

I use Audacity, and I just looked and it has hard limiting too, so I'll play around with that tonight.  Thanks.

There are a few links to compression, limiting, and/or volume envelope in the stickied thread at the top of the Computer Recording forum that will help you raise overall levels without needing clipping.

Thank you.    I've got some reading to do.

[Javier Cinakowski]

looks like some dc offset problems as well...  Or some type of voltage problem.... 

Hard limiting/soft compression,  or any other similar process would be better than amplifying beyond clipping.


anodyne33 has a point about not worrying about some inaudible clipping, but when working with the final 2 channel mix-down for mastering,  I'd rather compress than clip at the end of my work flow....

[Gutbucket]

looks like some dc offset problems as well...  Or some type of voltage problem....

I noticed that as well.  What Javier is talking about is the asymmetrical waveforms that appear to extend farther below the zero-crossing line than above.

The most applicable tool for raising your average level without effecting the sound too much is limiting, which is a special type of compression set to reduce the level of just the highest peaks, not the bulk of the material. It's a two part process- After the peaks are reduced the average level can be brought up higher than it could have before without clipping. That stage of increasing the level is called makeup gain because it is making up for the first peak reduction process of the limiter.

[Brian Skalinder]

The most applicable tool for raising your average level without effecting the sound too much is limiting

While similar tools, I think compression is more effective / less destructive than limiting, though which works best depends in part on the source material and the degree to which one must reduce the dynamic range.

[Gutbucket]

Good point. It should be mentioned that how the settings are adjusted makes all the difference, and there in lies the real art and trick to getting things to sound 'right'. I mentioned limiting because the OP is using clipping the same way as a hard limiter in this case, not as a compressor.

Limiting and compression both reduce dynamic range. To sum it up with a gross generalization, the difference between them is that compression typically squashes a wider range of the material, where as a limiter concentrates more on the parts highest in level and concentrates its squashing effect in that region. 

It's very easy to screw things up with compression or limiting IMO and difficult to lean how to make it sound right without making things sound worse. Personally, I usually get better results from using a simple gain envelope tool and drawing in gain changes manually for louder or softer parts then when I try and set a compressor or limiter.

[Jeremy Lykins]

looks like some dc offset problems as well...  Or some type of voltage problem.... 

I didn't understand why that happened, but I assumed it was because the drums weren't going through the PA and I was picking them up independent of the rest of the music.  Either that, or I thought that both mics were getting a higher amount of "noise" from the right side since I was ROC and the right mic was pointed directly at the right stack, but the left mic was pointed toward the left stack and was maybe picking up the drums in the middle space between the two speaker stacks.  Or could it be that my preamp battery was low?  All of those sound like possibilities to me, but I don't really know anything.

[Gutbucket]

Low preamp batt could be it.  The outside world makes symmetrical waves, regardless of that other stuff.