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Author Topic: Balancing convenience and quality  (Read 6362 times)

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Offline speedo

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Balancing convenience and quality
« on: December 06, 2011, 03:32:01 PM »
I am a professional sound designer and from time to time I get jobs that require field recording. The last one was a few years ago and I went to Hawaii with a 702 and some stereo mics. I found that the device was really too big and heavy to travel with comfortably. I had to hike in remote areas and it was quite uncomfortable to lug around with all my other stuff.

Ideally, I would love to have good a/d on something like my iPhone. I have an apogee duet 2 which I'm told could work with a powered USB hub. But perhaps a dedicated field recorder with a smaller footprint would be a better solution? Has anyone else had to compromise between gear quality and size? What might you recommend for remote wilderness captures with m/s x/y setups?

Thanks

Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: Balancing convenience and quality
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2011, 04:42:36 PM »
For 2 track, the size smaller but slightly thicker than an iPhone, 15 hours on 2AA, and quiet preamps of the Sony M10 is hard to beat. I run mine with a Denecke PS-2 phantom supply. At 210 for the recorder, it's worth having even as a backup device. The PS-2 will run power my Avantone CK-1 mics for 3-4 hours on a single 9V or can take a 7-22V into a 1/8 TS socket. The PS-2 is nice as the battery can be swapped without opening the case.
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Re: Balancing convenience and quality
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2011, 06:01:58 PM »
Good answer.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
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Offline DigiGal

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Re: Balancing convenience and quality
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2011, 06:05:36 PM »
Perhaps a solution for this...


Sound Devices MixPre-D

"24-bit, class-compliant USB streaming output for interconnection with Mac OS, Windows, Linux, and select iOS devices, computer audio in MixPre-D headphones"

http://sounddevices.com/products/mixpre-d.htm

Paired with this on your iPhone.

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« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 06:10:01 PM by DigiGal »
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Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: Balancing convenience and quality
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2011, 06:21:29 PM »
Perhaps a solution for this...


Sound Devices MixPre-D

"24-bit, class-compliant USB streaming output for interconnection with Mac OS, Windows, Linux, and select iOS devices, computer audio in MixPre-D headphones"

http://sounddevices.com/products/mixpre-d.htm

Paired with this on your iPhone.

http://www.audiofile-engineering.com/fire/

Looking into the MixPre-D it supports iPad, doesn't look like iPhone support. Still a very nice piece of gear.
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Offline page

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Re: Balancing convenience and quality
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2011, 07:18:14 PM »
Perhaps a solution for this...


Sound Devices MixPre-D

Looking into the MixPre-D it supports iPad, doesn't look like iPhone support. Still a very nice piece of gear.

all fine and good, but the 7 series recorders are only marginally bigger than the mixpre-d and doesn't need another connector to go to the recorder. I'm assuming that since these are paying gigs, you need a professional product at the end.

If you're really trying to put together a run-n-gun-style setup, then I'd look at two things:

1) improving your bag setup for carrying everything. I found I could carry a 722, a sonosax preamp (maybe half the size of the 722), lithium ion battery, cables, various accessories, and small mics all within the Portabrace AR-7 and it's small add on. That much stuff in the AR-7 setup surprised some people when they saw it in the field. Now, it required some forethought about what I was going to pack, but it's very doable if you hunt for a bag that works well with your equipment/purpose. Once I got bag management under control and moved to a smaller bag, life got better in terms of being agile.
2) I'm assuming your "stereo mic" is large diaphragm based in a tube-like structure. If so, then yes, I can understand why you might consider it difficult to do stuff on the go with it. My first thought was a Pearl MSH-10, or the Audio Technica PRO24, or the Rode NT4, all of which are small diaphragm stereo mics and would reduce both size and weight for the mic and shock mount required. The Pro24 even has it's own batteries, no idea how good it is though.
3) Keeping as much setup as possible. Instead of reconnecting cables and putting the mic in the shock, can you figure out a way to leave as much connected and just lay it in a bag so you can whip it out, record a bit, and put it away to move on? Likewise, if you've got other stuff (e.g. laptop, notebook, etc), can you pick a bag that can hold everything instead of multiple bags? I've used a laptop bag before and rearranged it specifically because of this. I hate multiple bags.  :P

So technically the smallest setup would be something like the AT Pro24 and a Sony PCM-10, but I don't know if I'd sign my name on a product created with that, maybe, sure, but I'd want to experiment with it first.

Is it complexity of the setup that makes it cumbersome or the physical size? I think this is a critical aspect that I couldn't tease out of your original post. I know people who can hide a 7 series unit on their body and sneak it around places, it's not that big compared to some other pieces of gear we use here, but if size really is the issue, then would you rather have 2 or 3 boxes all connected by cables instead of that 702?
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Re: Balancing convenience and quality
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2011, 08:10:57 PM »
hike in remote areas

That says size & weight to me.  The question is how pro do you need to go.  Pro gear is primarily far more dependable in adverse conditions, but also generally bigger and heavier.  'Professional sound designer' sounds like pro gear requirements, but everyone works differently and as pro gear goes, getting much smaller/lighter than Stereo mic > SD702 is difficult.

Besides dealing with size and weight, complexity becomes a big management issue even with a simple rig. I whole heartedly endorse Page's suggestion for preconfiguring the rig and streamlining your setup as much as possible.  People who have seen my multichannel setups will laugh and nod their head.  I often spend a good amount of time preconfiguring everything for a certain application so I can simply walk in with a small recording bag and small stand+mic bag, the two connnected by an sleeved multi-cable umbilical so I can deploy and hit record in less than a minute without hooking up anything.  It makes a huge difference in problem free confidence, attitude, what I choose to run, what I record and the opportunities that open themselves to me. 

Example- I recently setup a 4 channel rig in a 9"x8"x6" recording bag (including batteries & media for four 12 hr days) ready-wired to a stand/mic bag 4" in diameter x 20".  That setup had to be light, fast to use, super reliable, and be able to get the mics 9' in the air to let me do what I wanted.  It was a trimmed down version of a double surround rig which needed a larger bag 13"x10"x11" and ran 8 channels through the umbilical, the stand bag increased in size only slighlty to accomodate the additional 4 channel mic, pre-rigged.  I wouldn't even attempt it if I had to hook all that stuff up in the field and deal with the wiring.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline speedo

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Re: Balancing convenience and quality
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2011, 07:46:56 AM »
Any thoughts on the PCM-D1 vs M10 vs D50?

I will only be using external mics so the built-ins don't really matter much to me? Why is the D1 so much more expensive? Does one have better A/D?

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Re: Balancing convenience and quality
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2011, 03:38:55 PM »
Any thoughts on the PCM-D1 vs M10 vs D50?

I will only be using external mics so the built-ins don't really matter much to me? Why is the D1 so much more expensive? Does one have better A/D?

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Offline page

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Re: Balancing convenience and quality
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2011, 03:49:34 PM »
Any thoughts on the PCM-D1 vs M10 vs D50?

I will only be using external mics so the built-ins don't really matter much to me? Why is the D1 so much more expensive? Does one have better A/D?

for these purposes it doesn't matter, that's been a question that has baffled a bunch of us here though in the past. If you're not going to pair an external ADC with it, the D50 gets xnay'ed as well since it's optical spdif connectors are the only benefit above the M10.
"This is a common practice we have on the bus; debating facts that we could easily find through printed material. It's like, how far is it today? I think it's four hours, and someone else comes in at 11 hours, and well, then we'll... just... talk about it..." - Jeb Puryear

"Nostalgia ain't what it used to be." - Jim Williams

Offline kingdong

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Re: Balancing convenience and quality
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2011, 10:00:19 PM »
It seems to me that some of the recent tascam options could fit the bill here, particularly if you have some time before you need to commit.  The DR-100MKII and the DR-40 might both be options.  I have been eyeballing the DR-40 is pretty small, can supply p48, can decode mid/side (as mentioned in the 1st post), claims decent battery life (15hrs w/o phantom) and was offered by Amazon for as low as $168 recently (before $15 rebate).  I haven't seen anything yet on how it sounds, or whether the pre-amps are the same as the DR-680 which sound pretty good to me.
Just a thought, but if you have some time time to experiment, it could provide a pretty small setup.

Offline Red Boink

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Re: Balancing convenience and quality
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2011, 01:30:27 AM »
The Sony pcm d1 is the best handheld portable recorder.  I love mine, and I use it for prosound.  But start hanging batteries and external mics, forget it, IMHO.  It does have quietpres and good mics.

Offline Chilly Brioschi

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Re: Balancing convenience and quality
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2011, 06:38:27 AM »
HHB PortaDAT     8)


an SD702 isn't really *that* big, is it?

The proximity of the internal wiring in micro devices may be the cause of fidelity loss.
By the time you add external boxes and wiring, you are back considering the the reliability and quality of a 702.
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Offline YYzepp

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Re: Balancing convenience and quality
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2011, 09:56:49 AM »
The Roland/Edirol R-05 is smaller than the M10 and takes 2 AA. I've only had mine for 2 weeks but it appears very well built. There's a lotta good about it and the only negative for me is no internal speaker. Retail around $200 yet I got mine on a special for $99.
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Offline Todd R

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Re: Balancing convenience and quality
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2011, 10:45:57 AM »
It would help to know what mics you'll be using.  If they are anything except P48 mics, I'd consider a Sony M10 paired with a Naiant tinybox.

The tinybox is a very small 2ch mic preamp, about the size of a pack of cigs, and can run plug-in power mics, 3-wire lapel mics, and full size condensor mics that accept 12-18v phantom rather than the full 48v.  This is for the current v1.5 tinybox that is available now.  The version 2.0 tinybox should be out any time now, and will provide a full 48v phantom.

Even with the current version though, you can run professional mics at 16v phantom.  I use both the Milab VM44-links and the Beyer mc950 with a similar Naiant littlebox preamp -- both of those mics accept 12v-48v phantom.  Also you can use schoeps capsules with a set of CMR cables run by a tinybox for a very low profile, high-end rig.  If you can wait until the v2.0 tinybox comes out the field of mics it supports is pretty open, but even with the current v1.5 (assuming any are left) you have plenty of options for high-end mics it can run.

The tinybox runs 12-20 hours on a single charge of its internal li-ion battery, and the Sony m10 lasts that long on a set of AA batteries -- making for a very small and compact recording rig that can record all day long without any additional or external batteries.

A tinybox>M10 rig certainly isn't as versatile or rugged as a SD722, but it is quite a bit smaller and lighter and will easily yield professional quality recordings.
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Re: Balancing convenience and quality
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2011, 03:48:07 PM »
For anyone who might be interested Tascam's got a new product - iM2 iPhone & iPad Stereo Condenser Microphone.

http://tascam.com/product/im2/

   
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Offline sparkey

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Re: Balancing convenience and quality
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2011, 04:15:28 PM »
You could also go with a Tinybox with active cables and capsules into a smaller bit bucket....
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Re: Balancing convenience and quality
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2011, 12:19:57 AM »
For anyone who might be interested Tascam's got a new product - iM2 iPhone & iPad Stereo Condenser Microphone.

http://tascam.com/product/im2/

 

just what we need, more wanna-be iphone tapers.  nor a step in the right direction imho. 

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Re: Balancing convenience and quality
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2011, 12:37:54 PM »
Or tinybox v2 USB into the same iPhone with whatever mics you feel like using  ;)

How would this work?  Sorry, I'm pretty ignorant on what it takes to get "into" and iphone.  So you would need to use some sort of usb-to-30-pin iphone connector cable?
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