Topic: Can I make HD from a Canon HV20 compatible with the SD from my Pana GS300?

[greatape]

I typically record video in DV 16:9 with my trusty Panasonic GS300.  I have borrowed a Canon HV20 to record a show tomorrow.  Should I just set the Canon to record in DV format or will I be able to convert the Canon's HDV footage so that it will be compatible with the video from my GS300?  I will be editing with Vegas 8 Pro, if that makes a difference.

edit:
It appears the HV20 has me covered.   I can record in HDV but set the camcorder to export as "DV Locked".

[Wiesel]

You actually have 4 options:
1) record DV with the HV20
2) record HDV and export as DV via firewire
3) record HDV, export HDV via firewire, downconvert to SD on your computer and use it in your NLE
4) same as 3 but use the HDV movie in your NLE and export the result as DV/mpeg2 for dvd/whatever...

[guitard]

Looks like I'm a little late with this, but I read at a video forum that there are problems with footage filmed in SD mode with the HV20.  I believe to fix it you need to update the firmware.  So unless the firmware has been updated, it would be best to not use option #1.

[Wiesel]

Doesn't this refer to the European (PAL) HV30 firmware? Canon made a FW upgrade available for download which resolves that bug.

I think the overall best choice would be #3 since you have an archived HDV version on tape and can use special software like avisynth for downconversion to get the best possible SD quality.

[guitard]

Doesn't this refer to the European (PAL) HV30 firmware? Canon made a FW upgrade available for download which resolves that bug.

It's something I read a few months ago - I don't recall the details.  But now that you mention them, this sounds exactly right.

I think the overall best choice would be #3 since you have an archived HDV version on tape and can use special software like avisynth for downconversion to get the best possible SD quality.

Have you done any experimenting with this process?  I always downconvert from the videocam and take it from there.  Haven't tried capturing HD footage and then downconverting in an NLE.  If capturing HD and then downconverting produces a nicer mpeg2, I will start doing it this way.

[Wiesel]

I never experimented with it (yet) but there are many clever scaling algorithms existing and I just assume that the Canon firmware doesn't have the best one implemented. You can also downconvert HDV1080i to progressive DV which is another advantage compared to the DV export from the cam.

Other than that, you can theoretically (don't know if such a tool exists for practical use) downconvert the 4:2:0 HDV video to 4:4:0 SD video which probably isn't important to us tapers but it would allow better chroma keying than the default DV format (4:2:0 PAL, 4:1:1 NTSC) allows.

[greatape]

I ended up taping in HDV and used the Canon's built-in downconverter.  It was simple and the conversion seemed to work well.  However. . .
I am terribly disappointed with the performance of this camera.  I thought the HV20 is a really great camera so I assume something is wrong with this one. A lot of people use this camera and I have a feeling it's been dropped and/or abused.  I had the HV20 and my GS300 on identical, heavy duty manfrotto tripods, less than 12 inches apart.  My GS300 footage looks wonderful.  The HV20 looks awful.  The low-light performance was no better than the GS300, despite the big CMOS chip.  There is a lot of grain/noise.  The video doesn't look nearly as crisp and focused as my GS300.  But the absolute worst problem is the vibration from the drums.  Major vibration with every kick, while the GS300 was totally unaffected.  The footage is practically unusable unless I want to pretend it's an earthquake effect.  The strange thing is that the vibration was worse when it was zoomed out for a full stage shot.  The vibration is much less noticeable when zoomed in. Seems backwards, don't you think?

[Wiesel]

The low-light performance was no better than the GS300, despite the big CMOS chip.  There is a lot of grain/noise.  The video doesn't look nearly as crisp and focused as my GS300.

If you want to disable gain on the HV20, shoot in spotlight mode. Unfortunately the Canon cams don't offer direct gain adjustments like the Panasonic cams do. All shots I did with a HV30 gave me great results in spotlight mode, and since it doesn't use gain, there's absolutely no grain at all.

Major vibration with every kick, while the GS300 was totally unaffected.

Stupid question - but just to make sure: The optical image stabilization was active? It's often said that you should disable OIS when using a tripod wich is true in most cases but especially at gigs where rumbling isn't unusual it's IMO better to have it turned on.

The strange thing is that the vibration was worse when it was zoomed out for a full stage shot.  The vibration is much less noticeable when zoomed in. Seems backwards, don't you think?

Really strange. I have no idea how this could happen.

[greatape]

The low-light performance was no better than the GS300, despite the big CMOS chip.  There is a lot of grain/noise.  The video doesn't look nearly as crisp and focused as my GS300.

If you want to disable gain on the HV20, shoot in spotlight mode. Unfortunately the Canon cams don't offer direct gain adjustments like the Panasonic cams do. All shots I did with a HV30 gave me great results in spotlight mode, and since it doesn't use gain, there's absolutely no grain at all.

Major vibration with every kick, while the GS300 was totally unaffected.

Stupid question - but just to make sure: The optical image stabilization was active? It's often said that you should disable OIS when using a tripod which is true in most cases but especially at gigs where rumbling isn't unusual it's IMO better to have it turned on.

The strange thing is that the vibration was worse when it was zoomed out for a full stage shot.  The vibration is much less noticeable when zoomed in. Seems backwards, don't you think?

Really strange. I have no idea how this could happen.

I noticed spotlight mode and considered using it.  I'll experiment with that if I ever borrow this camera again.
OIS was turned off on both cameras.  I read that OIS slightly degrades quality so I only use it for handheld shots.

[Wiesel]

I read that OIS slightly degrades quality so I only use it for handheld shots.

This is wrong. Optical image stabilization (OIS) is "lossless", it doesn't degrade the picture quality in any way. Digital image stabilization is what can degrade quality but that's also not true for every cam.

[beatkilla]

Optical image stabilization is handy sometimes....but if your in front of the stage and are forced to shoot into the lights you'll notice what looks like fireflies around the light sources...turn optical image stabilizer off and the fireflies dissapear.Thats a well documented fault of optical image stabilization.I always keep my super steady shot off in ALL circumstances.

[Wiesel]

Optical image stabilization is handy sometimes....but if your in front of the stage and are forced to shoot into the lights you'll notice what looks like fireflies around the light sources...turn optical image stabilizer off and the fireflies dissapear.Thats a well documented fault of optical image stabilization.I always keep my super steady shot off in ALL circumstances.

I never noticed this, neither with a HV30 nor HF10, which are both using cmos chips. Looking at your signature, all your cams are ccd cams so maybe that only happens with ccd chips? Do you have a link to a description of that fault, or could you maybe post a picture of that effect?

[keytohwy]

I'm late on this, but I'd say it depends on your NLE.  I did some taping last year;  Cam1 was HDV NTSC, Cam2 was DV PAL.  I use Final Cut which allows you to simply drop the footage into the timeline and it does the rest.  I set my timeline to DV PAL and never looked back.  I 'spose you could use Compressor to upconvert, and make a final HDV mix, but I think DV may be too compressed for this.  Going 10bit Beta SP upconverting yields nice results.

Hope that helps,
keytohwy

[wilsonedits]

biggest issue is the gs300 isnt progressive so in order to properly uprezz you have to first make the footage progressive

i would uprezz teh gs300 to match the hv20....  that way your left with an HD file product for archiving and your not downgrading both sources