Topic: Noob setup - what's my best bang-for-buck upgrade?

[sunjan]

I have the recorder and battery box already, so I think I have everything I need... unless the AT853s have some other requirements I don't know about (hope not).

As fmaderjr said, take note of how much gain you'll have to add with the iRiver. My experience is that you'll benefit from an external pre, the signal from the mic won't be hot enough with just a bbox.
And when you get the money, do get a stereo pair.  Even if you don't separate the mics, running them X/Y at single point makes a huge difference!

[Sarah]

Doesn't the iRiver already have an internal pre-amp? I thought that lessened the need for external boosting somewhat. I remember back when I got it from Amazon in 2004, the pre-amp was DOA and I had to get the unit replaced. It made a big difference in loudness.

The mic is supposed to be here tomorrow so maybe I can find a test show to go to this week and see how it sounds.

[fmaderjr]

Doesn't the iRiver already have an internal pre-amp?

It has one, and it is good enough if you don't need to set it above 24 dB to get adequate levels. Above that it can add audible noise and you would greatly benefit from an external preamp like the ST-9100 for recording stuff that isn't too loud.

[Sarah]

Sooooo... I took the new mic out for a spin today. I am having trouble figuring out what happened - it doesn't look anywhere near clipping, but the sound is very distorted, mainly the bass... is there a reason why that would happen? It sounded OK in the venue. Was I too close to a speaker stack maybe? I was trying to get closer to the middle but ended up shunted off towards the side where the stack was. Audience noise, people talking between songs etc. sounds un-distorted... and a saxophone without amplification for a few seconds sounded clear and did not distort.

Advice appreciated... I'm perplexed.

The good news is that without distortion I would be very happy with the sound of this mic, even with it being mono... it's a nice full natural sound.

[fmaderjr]

I assume you wound up getting one AT853? Great mic but the mic itself can distort (unless you get the low sensitivity option) when taping in high sound pressure situations. Taping too near the speaker could cause that. Also if sound pressure was not extremely high, maybe the simple addition of a battery box would have handled that (most mics can tape record around 15 dB higher sound pressure levels with a battery box).

You really need to get a battery box (or preamp) and 2 mics whatever else you do. The battery box or pre will let you record a wider dynamic range and higher sound pressure levels without clipping. Very few recorders provided adequate power for most mics. The Church-Audio box costs only $30 is is barely larger than a 9 volt battery. Using 2 mics instead of one will add room ambiance and stereo crowd noise even if you are recording next to a mono speaker, which will make the recording sound much more natural and pleasing.

With a stereo pair of AT853's with the low sensitivity mod (or CA-11's or CA-14's), a battery box, and an H140 you should be able to make great sounding recordings of anything loud. For acoustic, you'd do even better substituting a preamp for the battery box. I love the Church Audio ST-9100 pre, as do many here.

[sunjan]

it doesn't look anywhere near clipping, but the sound is very distorted, mainly the bass... is there a reason why that would happen? It sounded OK in the venue.

How much gain were you adding?

One essential setting for Rockbox when recording an analog source: AGC safety clip.
http://www.taperssection.com/index.php/topic,73139.0.html
This make sure you don't clip from adding too much gain, so there's one less factor that could go wrong. Did you apply it?

[Sarah]

Thanks for the replies. I did use my battery box, I should have mentioned that. If the waveform in Audacity is telling me the truth then it is definitely not clipping, it is a different type of distortion (and it sounds different than that digital kind of clipping noise too). I used the Rockbox ACG safety clip setting (I always do) and it ended up around +5 or +6.

They didn't offer the low sensitivity mod on the mic I got but it says the max input sound level is 110dB SPL or 125 dB with battery box which seemed OK to me for concerts...

How close is "too close" to the speaker stack as a rule of thumb? If volume is not the issue... can the proximity still cause a problem due to air movement etc.?

Trying to post a short audio clip so you can hear it...

[su6oxone]

They didn't offer the low sensitivity mod on the mic I got but it says the max input sound level is 110dB SPL or 125 dB with battery box which seemed OK to me for concerts...

The AT853 and AT943 tend to require the 'low sensitivity' mod to avoid distorting at loud shows.  I got the exact same kind of distortion that you described at a few shows before I realized that it was the mics distorting.  Definitely I would send it back in to get it done or you can also ask Chris Church to do it for you since he was the one who came up with the idea originally. 

[Sarah]

I tried this rig again last night, exactly the same setup... it was a fairly loud show (not ear-splitting but about as loud as the typical shows I go to) and this recording does not have the same distortion problems as the first show I tried. I was not as close to the speaker stack this time and it may have been a touch quieter overall but even the loudest parts show no distortion at all. I think I was just too close to the stack last time. 

I didn't have ideal placement since it was a seated show and I didn't get there early enough to get the best seats, but overall I am pretty happy with the sound.

[illconditioned]

I'm stealth taping, mainly at loud rock clubs with rock/folk/alt.country kind of stuff. Occasionally I'll do a quieter seated venue too. My current taping gear consists of an iRiver H140 (rockboxed of course), Sound Professionals cardioid mics (SP-CMC-19) and a mini battery box which I don't always use since I haven't noticed a lot of difference with it. I can't remember where I got it and there's no label on it so I can't say what kind it is... probably from Sound Professionals as well.

I generally come up with pretty clean recordings, but they have a bit of that bottom-of-the-well / distant / tinny thing going on. (Not terrible, but enough to want improvement.)  What's the best place to spend money for a good SQ improvement? I'm thinking a new mic but I'm not sure where the sweet spot is for pricing and where you hit diminishing returns. I'm also not sure what kind of mic would work best with the H140, or if I'm better off with omnidirectional or cardioid. I tend to like to stand as close to the stage as possible since my priorities are usually for show enjoyment over show taping (and also the not-very-tall thing, I can't see over anyone if I'm further back). I've also wondered if I'd be better off with a single mic since I don't do a left/right stereo placement anyway.

If you think that tinny sound is more from methodology / placement I'd love to hear that too. I think I often set the gain too low, I don't tape often enough to really nail it down for each venue I go to so I am usually conservative to avoid clipping.

I'd love to keep any expenditures under $150 but could go higher if it would make a real improvement.

If you like alt.country (at least Canadian artists) visit my website, http://Soundmann.com.  I've got quite a few clips there, and different gear combinations to hear.  Note that most of my stuff was made with mics way up close, taped or clamped somewhere near the stage.  A few "hat" recordings though.

  Richard