Topic: Mil Spec Silver Cable Question

[George2]

I'm saying it does matter, that you shouldn't use hook-up cable for location recording that was meant for permanent installations! Period! Canare and Mogami mic cabling is meant for lots of flexing and the Silver mil Spec at the beginning of the thread is not. If someone has specs on the cable at the beginning of this thread, please post it.
And I'll answer the question. Star quad has twice the capacitance as the 2 conductor version. I don't think you can hear the difference between the two with 15 ft. of cable, IMO. I have used both, and for me it comes down to what is easiest and fastest to solder many times. On location you might have 500amps of AC running nearby from a generator, or a lot of Radio Frequency activity and it would be better to go with the quad cable, just to be safe.

[Tim]

I'm saying it does matter, that you shouldn't use hook-up cable for location recording that was meant for permanent installations! Period!

and yet, ask LKJ noted...

There must be thousands of feet of this wire in use by TS members.  Have you noticed a lot of people bitching?  I haven't. 

You may be correct in a strict technical sense but experience teaches us that those concerns are not an actual issue in the field. If you don't want to use them that's fine but don't tell the rest of us, who have been using these cables without issue for years, that the cable will not work for our purposes. You have no evidence, merely supposition. We have thousands of hours of tapes on our side. I'll take field-tested evidence over speculation any day.

more from earlier in the thread...

You guys are confusing issues here.  The silver clad mil spec wire is perfectly fine for our applications, as demonstrated most notably by the Audio Magic Hyper Conductors line of cables.  This is the basis of design for all the silver clad copper cables found on TS.com.  Of these the BBee, Hydra, Dogstar, Busilver, Hi Ho Silver lines, there are hundreds of users that have been using this material for 3 to 4 years without issue.  This demonstrates it's success rate.  Granted, there are users that abuse their cables and have issues.

The teflon jacket is not rigid.  It flexes and gives a needed.  However, the tape wrapped vs extruded teflon is thinner and more susceptible to penetration; thus, one reason for techflex.  The tape type is several layers thick and not delicate by any means, but can be cut or nicked, which will expose the shield.  The techflex aids in prevention.

I'll just echo what Matt and others have said here.  Chris may have not had a good experience with this type of wire, but plenty of others have.  Not knocking Chris or diminishing his personal experience, but I don't agree with the generalization that milspec silver cables are fragile. 

I think Matt may be off base a bit with the idea that the Hyperconductors have demonstrated the usefullness of mil-spec silverclad/teflon cable in our applications -- I think they've been demonstrated not only by them but also by all the silver-clad cables sold and used on ts.com.  I don't have my records here right now, but I think I personally sold 3500-4000' of cables, meaning several hundred pairs of cables. 

I have sold numerous sets of cables to people who do sound work for bands, and who set up and tear down their Dogstar cables on a nightly basis -- they certainly aren't babying them!  My Dogstars have held up fine and have not shown themselves to be fragile. 

And by the way, I don't make cables anymore, so I'm not saying this to fluff my cables or get sales.  Just wanted to put my two cents in so folks who are cable shopping don't give up on the options on ts.com for getting some good sounding cables at a good price.

[boojum]

FWIW -  I am sticking with Star Quad from Canare.  It is designed for use as mic cable.  You may be able to open cans with a pair of scissors, but that does not mean it is a good idea, regardless of how many cans you have opened that way.  BTW, does anybody have the specs on this mil spec wire???  Just curious. 

[Tim]

You may be able to open cans with a pair of scissors, but that does not mean it is a good idea, regardless of how many cans you have opened that way. 

unless of course scissors actually do a better job of opening the can.In that case, I and many others will go ahead and use them and you can stick with your can opener.

amazing that someone who harps on "proving" that cables sound different in one thread is willing to overlook mounds of evidence in another case. So much for science and objectivity, eh?

[Todd R]

BTW, does anybody have the specs on this mil spec wire???  Just curious. 

Here is the spec sheets for the Belden 20 ga and 22ga 2-cond versions:

http://bwccat.belden.com/ecat/pdf/83320.pdf

http://bwccat.belden.com/ecat/pdf/83319.pdf

[OFOTD]

MIL- M27072/89NDDE9 - Aerospace/military rated PTFE insulated wire. New/unused condition.

Specifications
Length: 100 feet
Maufacturer: Wirecraft
Temperature rating: 200 degrees C
Number of conductors: 3
AWG: 24
Stranding: 19 strands of AWG 36
Primary insulation: Polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE)
Sheath: Polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE)
Maximum cable diameter: 0.137 in.
Weight (lbs/100 ft): 1.89
Color: White

[boojum]

This two stranded wire, MIL-W-16878/4 (Type E) Control and Instrumentation Cable, is better than star quad microphone cable?  OK, if it floats your boat.  I'm happy if you're happy. 

[boojum]

You may be able to open cans with a pair of scissors, but that does not mean it is a good idea, regardless of how many cans you have opened that way. 

unless of course scissors actually do a better job of opening the can.In that case, I and many others will go ahead and use them and you can stick with your can opener.

amazing that someone who harps on "proving" that cables sound different in one thread is willing to overlook mounds of evidence in another case. So much for science and objectivity, eh?

Evidence???  Apologies.  I must have missed it.  Point me to the mounds of it.  I guess you mean that you or some other folks have tested this and have not relied on anecdotal evidence.  We all know that anecdotal evidence is notoriously inaccurate so we would, of course, ignore it.  Right?   

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Evidence???  Apologies.  I must have missed it. Point me to the mounds of it.  I guess you mean that you or some other folks have tested this and have not relied on anecdotal evidence.  We all know that anecdotal evidence is notoriously inaccurate so we would, of course, ignore it.  Right?   

We are not here to convince you.

I know I'm not the only one who does comps and I've done literally dozens over the past two years.

[Tim]

Years worth of field testing is evidence and it is not in any way anecdotal. What proof do you have of your position? You're always so quick to demand evidence of others and supply none of your own. Nevermind your shifting standards, anything to be a rebellious contrarian I suppose

how about this, we'll all go on using high-quality cables to make high-quality tapes and you can go ahead doing whatever it is you do.

[Todd R]

Evidence???  Apologies.  I must have missed it.  Point me to the mounds of it.  I guess you mean that you or some other folks have tested this and have not relied on anecdotal evidence.  We all know that anecdotal evidence is notoriously inaccurate so we would, of course, ignore it.  Right?   

Actually, I think the idea that this is anectodotal evidence is a red herring.  It somehow implies there is a right and a wrong scientific, objective answer.  It is entirely subjective -- whether or not an individual percieves a noticeable sound difference in different cables, whether or not an individual prefers the sound of a given cable over others, and whether or not that sound difference is more important than other things -- like handling noise or whether the cable was originally meant for conduit placement.  You can't scientifically prove that AKGs are better sounding than Schoeps -- some people will prefer akgs, some schoeps, and some neumanns (and some Milabs   ).

Also, I've got to admit to being confused.  You purchased one of the last sets of mil-spec SPC mic cables I've made.  Apparently at this point you've switched to Canare starquad.  Forget the specs -- what differences did you hear between the two types of cables?  Which cable type sounded better to you?  Doesn't matter which you choose, to me the point is that people can choose whatever floats their boat.  From the sounds of it, you prefer Canare not the SPC, which is fine, I just don't understand there's the need to somehow prove that folks that choose otherwise are wrong.

[Brian]

You purchased one of the last sets of mil-spec SPC mic cables I've made. 

[JD]

Interesting discussion. When I bought this cable, it was more for the light weight and saving some room in the gear bag than it was for sonic quality. I just think that it is more durable than the standard mic cables of similar diameter. It may not be as flexible as Canare cable, but it's flexibility is more than adequate for what we do.

Last weekend, for shits and giggles, I did a half assed test that attempted to compare this cable to Canare L-4E6S. Using the same mic and recorder set up, I recorded some music off of my stereo using each cable set (both sets 15' long).

I expected no difference considering the simplicity of the test, but to my surprise there was. The silvers had something about them that sounded better, couldn't really put my finger on what though. Not much difference, but perceivable. Now granted I knew which recording was which so take it for what it's worth. I did however have a pair of friends drop by, one of which works as a FOH. I had the two of them listen to the same recordings, not knowing which was which or what was even different about them for that matter, and they both liked the "silvers" recording better as well. Same thing, neither could really say what was better about the silvers, but they liked their sound better.

What's all this mean, probable nothing. At least I got some nice compact cables and freed up a little room in my gear bag. Now I have to work on assembling my stubby RA interconnects.

Jamie

[it-goes-to-eleven]

Sound aside, I Really like how my 25' teflon jacket cables 'handle' in a single sleeve of techflex.  They coil up very easily but have no tendency to coil on their own... the cable lays flat. I believe the slickness of the teflon contributes to the easy handling by allowing it to shift and float freely in the techflex.  I think I may have heat shrunk the pair every 4' or so (after straightening and aligning, etc).  The single coil of cable is quite small, much smaller than Canare mini star-quad would be.

A friend has some Lee Geddy cables that are individually techflexed (16' or so, I think). They look like a real handful to use.  They always want to coil, like trying to unwind a slinky.

[Brian]

A friend has some Lee Geddy cables that are individually techflexed (16' or so, I think). They look like a real handful to use.  They always want to coil, like trying to unwind a slinky.

this is my experience as well.  they suck for keeping tidy in the field. i used them for one festival and called it quits. now i just use them for studio applications.