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Author Topic: Mil Spec Silver Cable Question  (Read 47801 times)

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Offline Tapeholio

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Re: Mil Spec Silver Cable Question
« Reply #135 on: December 21, 2007, 10:09:24 AM »
I have found the quad core to be more flexible than a single pair of thicker wire.  But 1804a is still way, way more flexible.
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Offline George2

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Re: Mil Spec Silver Cable Question
« Reply #136 on: December 21, 2007, 08:45:32 PM »
Who cares about a broken solder joint, it'll sound better with silvers!
Sennheiser 418s>SDMixPre-D>RO9HR
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Couple of Schoeps CMT441 too.

Offline George2

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Re: Mil Spec Silver Cable Question
« Reply #137 on: December 21, 2007, 09:50:35 PM »
Quote text from Arny Kruger:I called Santa and told him FORGET ABOUT THE SILVERS MY COPPER IS JUST FINE!


> Given that speaker distortion amounts to full percentage
> points of the input signal,

Speaker distortion affects the output sound, not the input signal.
> can gold-plated cables etc.
> really make that much of a difference?

Most gold plating, particularly in consumer audio, is eyewash.
Besides, the cables themselves aren't gold plated, its the connectors that
they gold plate. Most of the gold plating goes on the outside where it is
seen. Furthermore, gold in addition to being the opposite of cost-effective,
is also not that good of a performer when it comes to electrical contacts.

> True, the conductivity of gold, silver is marginally better than
> copper,

No, the conductivity of pure gold is worse than that of copper.
metalresistivity, nano-ohm-meter
silver    14.71
copper    15.80
gold    20.11
aluminum    25.00
zinc    54.55
iron    87.10

In connectors, remember that the metal you see is only a thin plated layer.
Because it is so thin, its conductivity is secondary. The conductivity of a
cable is most strongly dependent on the wire, not the connector, or a thin
layer of plating on the connector.

But you're right about the conductivity of silver being only marginally
better than that of copper. Rule of thumb is that one wire gauge larger
balances the books. IOW a 12 guage copper wire has about the same
conductivity as a 13 guage silver wire.

Besides, when you're talking conductivity, there's another dimension to the
equation. For example, the conductivity chart above shows conductivity
versus volume. Conductivity versus weight gives a different ranking.
Conductivity versus cost is a yet another ranking.  I believe that right now
aluminum is the champ for conductivity versus weight and cost. What matters
most depends on what you are doing.

> but it's hard to imagine that it would be audible.

Same story, all over again. What is the application?  The rules for speaker
cables and interconnects differ.
>   Not even in terms of speaker damping/ringing.

Speaker damping is a questionable concept. The relevant parameter is the
source impedance that the loudspeaker system sees when it looks back at the
amplifier which can affect the frequency response and therefore the sound of
the speaker at all audio frequencies.
The two strongest relevant parameters of cable are resistance by a country
mile, but also inductance to some degree. Some cable manufacturers obsess
over more esoteric parameters like skin effect, but in most cases inductance
is the stronger effect.

Of course, resistance rules. But even resistance runs into the law of
diminishing returns. Once you get the series impedance of a speaker cable
down to about 1/30th of the nominal impedance of the speaker, diminishing
returns has set in, big time. Cutting the series impedance of a speaker
cable even further  to 1/60th won't make it sound twice as good. In fact,
its a bit of an argument whether it will make any audible difference at all.

> Might be able to see something on a 'scope, but maybe not
> even then.

Scopes are pretty crude tools for evaluating connectors and cables.
> Are there other considerations, beyond that of quality
> construction/cable longevity?

Most cables that I've seen fail, and I see lots of failed cables, fail at
the point where a wire is attached to a connector. Gold or silver does very
little good there. It's all about mechanical design and care during
construction.
The best way to connect a wire to a connector is a well-crimped connection.
Solder runs a close second. Except in the case of special connectors that
are not frequently used for home and studio audio, solder the more reliable
method to use in the field. But neither crimping nor soldering guarantee a
reliable connection when the cable is flexed even just a modest amount. It's
all about strain relief.

Probably the biggest name in professional audio cables is Neutrik, a
connector manufacturer. Most of their connectors don't have gold plating,
and most of us would have it no other way. Neutrik have arguably built their
business on connectors with base metal contacts, overall mechanical
robustness, and easy-to-assemble but highly effective strain relief systems.

> Some people swear there is a difference, certainly the
> mfr of Monster cables, who appeared on The Big Idea, and
> is apparently making millions.

Monster cable is AFAIK still a private corporation, majority stockholder
Noel Lee. They don't manufacture anything but advertising, press releases,
and other business documents. Their business model is based on evangelizing
salesmen and management of audio stores with promises of increased
profitability. They organize lavish rewards for top sellers. They sell
products that other people manufacture for them.  They have a few patents,
but I don't know of any serious manufacturer of cables who worries much
about them. Monster IMO is about sizzle, not steak.
Sennheiser 418s>SDMixPre-D>RO9HR
Beyer MC930>Fostex FM3>NagraSD
Couple of Schoeps CMT441 too.

Offline Chilly Brioschi

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Re: Mil Spec Silver Cable Question
« Reply #138 on: December 22, 2007, 07:46:00 AM »
I was under the impression that gold is used to plate pins or contact points because it is very resistant to corrosion.
Gold elsewhere on a cable is essentially a waste, from a technical point of view.

A few other thoughts as I read through this thread:
Teflon is not Kapton.
Kapton comes in several "flavors" for different characteristics, such as heat resistance and flexibility.
I'm thinking that some folks are mistaking one for another, although that may not be the case.

Some wire is not designed to be handled, and may have chemicals in it which can be irritating to some people.
That is an issue which I don't hear about much anymore, but because we're sometimes talking about surplused wire, I thought it relevant.

Has anyone ever done a shootout of copper versus silver with the wire resistance equalized between samples?  Surely, other factors come into play, but that is one very large difference to eliminate as a variable.
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Offline momule

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Re: Mil Spec Silver Cable Question
« Reply #139 on: December 22, 2007, 12:19:31 PM »
I just stumbled onto this thread.  I purchased Teflon cable from 4 separate vender's and all have  cracks in the Teflon. 
I'm not trying to knock anyones cables by anymeans as I have seen/used both Todd and Marcs cables and they seem to be ok. But this is why I personally choose the belden cable for my "phatcables"  Its very flexible and I personally like the sound better.  Its more expensive than the teflon but still cheaper than alot of the other cables that are pre made.



« Last Edit: December 22, 2007, 10:57:46 PM by momule »
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Offline JD

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Re: Mil Spec Silver Cable Question
« Reply #140 on: December 22, 2007, 01:06:21 PM »
teflon is really toxic to small critters.
If your cables ever get chewed by the family pet, it could be toxic to them (quick death for birds! We have two cockatiels, and no teflon pans, because just the gases emitted from cooking with it is too toxic for them).

That's good to know. I have a cat that likes to chew on wire every once and a while, can't seem to break him of the habit. Fortunately he seems to prefer the coiled phone wire and stays away from power wires.
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Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Mil Spec Silver Cable Question
« Reply #141 on: December 23, 2007, 08:54:05 AM »
nothing like chewing a little teflon !
maybe wash it down w/some anti-freese !
Mmmm !

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Mil Spec Silver Cable Question
« Reply #142 on: December 23, 2007, 09:14:22 AM »
I buy my teflon cable from allied cable and wire. I'd return it if it was cracked or split. I think a lot of the 'surplus' stuff sold is rejected, scrap, etc.

Offline Javier Cinakowski

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Re: Mil Spec Silver Cable Question
« Reply #143 on: December 23, 2007, 04:28:57 PM »
you gotta try smoking teflon, good times!


 :smoking:
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Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Mil Spec Silver Cable Question
« Reply #144 on: December 24, 2007, 08:06:10 AM »
I have seen a rip in the cable before when I get my stuff.  but its never in a bad spot.  guess i'm lucky.

Offline George2

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Re: Mil Spec Silver Cable Question
« Reply #145 on: December 25, 2007, 11:10:06 AM »
I saw a rip in a bad spot once.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2007, 01:54:48 PM by BRH »
Sennheiser 418s>SDMixPre-D>RO9HR
Beyer MC930>Fostex FM3>NagraSD
Couple of Schoeps CMT441 too.

Offline John Kelly

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Re: Mil Spec Silver Cable Question
« Reply #146 on: April 04, 2008, 09:44:52 PM »
Question for you guys that know about these mil spec cables.  What is the spec number of the most commonly used cable?  I work for a company that may have stock on them, but I need to know what I'm looking for. 
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Offline StuStu

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Re: Mil Spec Silver Cable Question
« Reply #147 on: April 05, 2008, 06:57:40 AM »
Question for you guys that know about these mil spec cables.  What is the spec number of the most commonly used cable?  I work for a company that may have stock on them, but I need to know what I'm looking for. 

For what use? In other words, I use 10 gauge single conductor for speaker wire and 18-22ish gauge 2-3 conductor for XLR's. As for specific mil spec numbers, I believe there are many. I'll be glad to look at the numbers of what various wire I have lying around if you'd like. 
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Offline John Kelly

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Re: Mil Spec Silver Cable Question
« Reply #148 on: April 05, 2008, 07:38:09 AM »
Question for you guys that know about these mil spec cables.  What is the spec number of the most commonly used cable?  I work for a company that may have stock on them, but I need to know what I'm looking for. 

For what use? In other words, I use 10 gauge single conductor for speaker wire and 18-22ish gauge 2-3 conductor for XLR's. As for specific mil spec numbers, I believe there are many. I'll be glad to look at the numbers of what various wire I have lying around if you'd like. 

The cables people are using to make mic cables out of.  There are thousands of MIL numbers, I'm just wondering which one is being used for our purposes. ;)
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Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Mil Spec Silver Cable Question
« Reply #149 on: April 05, 2008, 08:14:04 AM »
I find the 24 awg quad to be fairly flexible (nowhere near 1804a):

mil-c-27500-24rc4s06

20 awg 3 pair can be quite stiff.  We still need to do a TS comp between 2 conductor vs. quad.

Decode info:

http://www.awcwire.com/PNB_Mil257600.aspx?id=MIL-C-27500

 

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