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Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: mattb on January 03, 2004, 12:31:26 AM
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Hey, I'm running some sound pro's AT933s with card and hyper caps. Most of my recordings are from small clubs and these mics generally do a fine job being so close ortf or xy.
I've also had some MC012s that I sold not too long ago. I liked them, but they seemed obtrusive in the places I was taping.
I'm wondering what my other options are for nice small mics like my ATs but nicer. I like the sound of the DPAs I've heard and would probably go for the cards if I ever went that route. Those are probably more than I'm likely to spend any time soon, so I'm wondering if there's much between these two levels in mini mics. I'm not a big fan of omnis for these places so binaurals would be out for me. I like the rejection qualities of my current setup. I also like having interchangeable caps.
Suggestions?
M@
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Well, in the low profile / "actives" you've got some choices, all less expensive than the DPAs:
~used price | description
$1,100 | MBHO 603A w/ KAx caps
$1,400 | Neumann KM100s w/ AKx caps
$2,200 | Schoeps CMC6 bodies with MKx caps
$?,??? | AKG 460s with CK? caps (though I understand the active cables are tough to come by)
Even if the mics you're looking at don't have actives available, you could run any number of caps with a JK Labs (http://www.geocities.com/jk_labs_info/index.html) setup.
I'm sure I've forgotten some, but there's a starter list.
As for being obtrusive, if the band and venue is cool with it, don't sweat it. I felt a little self-conscious about being obtrusive initially but have gotten over it. Another way to run less obtrusively: clamp and extension bar. Clamp to a railing, chair, lamp, beam, all kinds of options depending on the venue.
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audix micros, check on sonicsense.com
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nbox w/ actives & mk4 ;D someday i'll own this rig! check out some of alex xxxxx's recordings w/ this rig! i run at933's for stealth and really like the sound, but they're no mk4's ;)
*Edit by Moke, to remove member name, by request
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you can also get JK Labs to build a box that will give you an active setup with Gefells and AKGs
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I'm seriously oblivious. Just how expensive are DPAs?
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www.musicians-gear.com (list prices in us without tax) has all your prices approx for new gear
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Yeah, I can be pretty low profile with my little home made 6" bar on the Ultrapod mounted to a railing or similar. I find all the XLR stuff to be really bulky and prefer dealing with miniplugs or mini XLRs (like DPA).
I guess I should be more specific about money too. I was wondering about sub $1000 mics too. I have too much other stuff (house, baby, skis, bikes, wife, etc) competing for my money right now. I suspect my choices may be very limited to stuff that's about the same quality as what I have. Just thought I'd check to be sure...
M@
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Definitely limited choices in the sub-$1,000 range for compact setups. Since it doesn't sound like you're stealthing, I think your best bet is to upgrade the mics (regardless of size) and just keep taping and don't sweat the so-called obtrusiveness. 8)
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Or save for DPAs...
I also just like to be able to travel light.
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Definitely limited choices in the sub-$1,000 range for compact setups. Since it doesn't sound like you're stealthing, I think your best bet is to upgrade the mics (regardless of size) and just keep taping and don't sweat the so-called obtrusiveness. 8)
Agreed. I worry more about the footprint of the stand as opposed to the size of the mics... and the only reason I worry about the footprint is because I don't want someone to accidently kick it or trip over it... Usually put the mics high enough (like 7' or so) where they would only block Shaquille's line of site in a small club...
I think you are in the same boat I was in... I was worried about taking up too much space... but at some point, you got to become comfortable with the "f*ck 'em" attitude. Then, by the best mics you can afford!
I don't know much about them, but the dude at sonic sense did offer me a setup of DPA 4071
's w/ the micro-dot converter box they use for like $500...
;D
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I don't know much about them, but the dude at sonic sense did offer me a setup of DPA 4071
's w/ the micro-dot converter box they use for like $500...
Really? I'll have to have a look...
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I don't know much about them, but the dude at sonic sense did offer me a setup of DPA 4071
's w/ the micro-dot converter box they use for like $500...
Really? I'll have to have a look...
However, the 4071s are omnis:
I'm not a big fan of omnis for these places so binaurals would be out for me.
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I hear what you guys are saying, but I still like them little mics. I had some full sized mics with better sound (IMO) and sold them mostly because I just want to have one set and got tired of lugging them around.
I'd like to have one set of multi-purpose mics that can be used stealth or in the open.
Now those little Audix mics (1244/45s) look interesting. Do people use them for live recording much? The'd need phantom, right?
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DPA 4022/4023 all the way!!!! :)
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*ahem*
4021s are smaller! :)
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too bad the dpa's are way overpriced for what they are *put up them dukes* :-)
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*ahem*
4021s are smaller! :)
Very true, amen to that!!
Not gonna bite on that last comment... 8)
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heheheh all i can think about when i see this thread is that 90's sir mixalot song :-)
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too bad the dpa's are way overpriced for what they are *put up them dukes* :-)
How so? I mean honestly, they havea great detailed sound and tight bass. If you want them to sound like Neumanns you can just throw a wet towel over them. A pretty decent deal, you practically get 2 types of mics for the price of one. ;D
Mike
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They are - significantly so. However (for better or worse), they're omnis and thus might not fit all of the applications you're looking for. Cardioids seem to be much more flexible. Does DPA even make a card that's the size of the 406x?
-Matt
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Omnis pick up sound from all around the capsule, so if you're stealthing in a loud crowd, you'll get a lot of crowd noise. If you're open taping with them, it's tough to run omnis from a section or in a bad room (since you'll get WAY more of the 'room sound' than with other mics).
Cardioids have more directionality, and thus have the ability to cut out some of that. They're not perfect for everything either, but I can count the times I wished I had omnis instead of cards on one hand.
Still, if you just want TINY, those are practically impossible to beat. 406x>batt box>dat might as well be invisible!
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getting up close and standing in the center (btwn L and R) takes care of some of those issues, doesn't it?
What you say makes sense, but unfortunately I haven't had that experience yet. Someone else jump in here!
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Omnis pick up sound from all around the capsule, so if you're stealthing in a loud crowd, you'll get a lot of crowd noise. If you're open taping with them, it's tough to run omnis from a section or in a bad room (since you'll get WAY more of the 'room sound' than with other mics).
getting up close and standing in the center (btwn L and R) takes care of some of those issues, doesn't it?
Getting up in the heart of FOB/DFC does help out with room issues, but does nothing for people yapping away, hooting, and yelling near you. Because of this I really dislike the idea of using omnis for stealthing shows in clubs, try it and you will be amazed at the sounds your mics will pick up, beers clinking, people blabbing away, cash registers, etc... Even just running cardiods ORTF I have heard stuff on the tape that I didn't hear live at the time.
For the person that started this thread, since he/she was looking for mics to use in small clubs I think omnis are not a good idea for that specific situation. If you are stealthing jazz or classical where people stay quiet during the music, they are more amenable, but I still prefer the rear rejection I get using cardioids, since even in these quiet situations, you can still pick up people breathing, coughing, rustling their clothes/programs, and so on. Of course, given no background noises (and hopefully, high SPL's) the little omni mics can sound great especially the DPA 406x's!!
Also, I think it is important to note that these mini mics typically have much less dynamic range than high end "active" capsule mics, if you are recording music with wide dynamic contrasts this can play a big part in the quality of your recording. I did some classical stuff with CSB>D8 that came out pretty poorly. Due to the high noise level of the mics and deck, the soft parts are very undefined and actually had some audible hiss. Now, this past summer when I taped the Chicago Symphony at Ravinia: DPA 4022>V3>Laptop at 24 bit, it was a whole different story!! I ran levels VERY conservatively (couldn't check levels during the music) but due to the the added dynamic range of this rig, the music still sounded great, with no apparent noise/hiss, even after some serious normalizing!! (I'm talking +15 dB or so) Just something else to keep in mind, in addition to size and polar pattern, dynamic range of your mic can have a noticeable effect on the quality of your recording.
Peace out-
Ben
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Omnis pick up sound from all around the capsule, so if you're stealthing in a loud crowd, you'll get a lot of crowd noise. If you're open taping with them, it's tough to run omnis from a section or in a bad room (since you'll get WAY more of the 'room sound' than with other mics).
getting up close and standing in the center (btwn L and R) takes care of some of those issues, doesn't it?
depends, some bands have rowdy pits in the desribed area. And sometimes the stacks are too far apart...
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this past summer when I taped the Chicago Symphony at Ravinia: DPA 4022>V3>Laptop at 24 bit
I used to go to Ravinia regularly back when I lived in those parts. Was this open taping? With a stand (or hanging, or...)? Where did you run? Which performance? How'd it turn out?
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this past summer when I taped the Chicago Symphony at Ravinia: DPA 4022>V3>Laptop at 24 bit
I used to go to Ravinia regularly back when I lived in those parts. Was this open taping? With a stand (or hanging, or...)? Where did you run? Which performance? How'd it turn out?
No open taping for this one, it was stealth all the way. I am sure the CSO has a no recording policy. Easy to get gear in because of the whole picnic area. For people not familiar with Ravinina you can buy lawn tix and bring in all the picnic stuff you want in. No view of the stage from these seats but they have speakers out on the lawn so you can hear what's going on.
Anyway, I was way off to the right side, 2nd row for set 1 and 2nd set moved back with my parents to midway in the pavilion. 1st set I wore the hat, 2nd set since there were so many empty seats around us I just put my packpack on the seat next to me and set the hat on top of it. It was good to be closer for set 1, all the crickets start going bonkers at dusk then chill out post-set 1.
Sound came out really nice for being that far off center, not the nice wide precise imaging one would get in the sweet spot but very natural and transparent sound. Gotta love taping real instruments and not a PA system!! :)
I forgot what was the 1st set, Ravel's Bolero 2nd set...
Would be glad to offer this up in the future if anyone is interested, will be too busy studying for qualifying exams for the next 2 weeks but after that I can get it out...
Take care,
Ben
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so when would omnis be optimal..?
Some possibilities that come to mind:
On stage
In a nice-sounding venue where you are allowed to set up where you need to (would be great to hang em' from the ceiling or space them on the floor)
Outdoor show (need to consider the possibilities of people yakking away near the mics, especially FOB)
Ben
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What about this site: http://www.microphonemadness.com/
Some of those mics are insanely small. Wonder how they sound.
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What about this site: http://www.microphonemadness.com/
Some of those mics are insanely small. Wonder how they sound.
Probably not so good, not to generalize to all of them, but the sennheiser mini omnis (the only ones I peeped at) were spec'd at:
Signal to noise ratio: 65dB, 1khz at 1pa
That's not too good...
Ben
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What about this site: http://www.microphonemadness.com/
Some of those mics are insanely small. Wonder how they sound.
Probably not so good, not to generalize to all of them, but the sennheiser mini omnis (the only ones I peeped at) were spec'd at:
Signal to noise ratio: 65dB, 1khz at 1pa
That's not too good...
Ben
Well, i own these: http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/category.cgi?category=120&item=SP-CMC-4&type=store
They sound pretty damn good. Wonder how the s/n ratio is affected depending on the battery box (if at all) and other gear.
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I love having the kc5 cables now for my mk4 and mk41's. With my stealth stand by footprint all around is small, take up so little space, and clamping is so easy with them and my ORTF and DIN bars.
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at jazzfest (posted previously)
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.
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whose are those, jr?
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phil from audix had them at jazzfest. he was testing them at the acura stage during c,s,n. they use audix on stage.
jr
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ahh thanx, I thoguht we had our first member of team micros
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ahh thanx, I thoguht we had our first member of team micros
After some more research, listening, and saving we may at some point. Those look like they'd be good for what I'm after without breaking the bank (just denting it).
Can't do it now, but may when I can in the future...
M@