Topic: need more drums in on-stage recordings

[trajhip2000]

Been recording an instrumental trio - guitar/bass/drums, set up with drums in the middle - for a while. Running a 744T with an on-stage pair (ORTF, DIN, M/S, Blumlein etc.) about 3 ft back from the drums, and individual mics on the guitar and bass amps to get a little more direct instrument sound and reinforce the guitar in setups where the guitar player sometimes stands between the stage mics and his amps (I often don't need the bass mic in the mix). The problem I've been having recently is the guitar and bass have gotten pretty loud, to the point where the drum sound is too weak. I started running M/S in an attempt to get more drums by using more mid, but that close the image is wide enough that I need some side to get the snare and toms, so I don't really gain anything. Here are the options I've considered, just wondering whether anyone has other suggestions: (1) giving up the guitar and bass mics and running drum overheads in those channels - but I lose my guitar direct which I sometimes want, and don't get any kick reinforcement; (2) using a single overhead + the guitar direct, again no kick plus mono drums; (3) running overheads + a kick mic into a small (cheap) mixer and doing an on the fly drum mix to go wth the stereo pair (again I lose my guitar direct); (4) as (3) but panning everything mono and taking that mono drum mix along with a guitar direct - similar to making a matrix w/ a mono board feed, presumably will collapse my drum image to some extent; (4) the ideal solution, getting a 722 or 702 and running 6 channels - but way too expensive and not a viable option at the moment.

I'm kinda leaning towards 4 as the best compromise, altho I'm not in love with the idea of going to all that trouble to end up using a mono drum mix... Any other ideas I haven't thought of? Thanks.

Steve

[NOLAfishwater]

I would run subcards lip of stage with one pointing at the bass and the other at the guitar. One omni low and in the middle of stage so that it can suck up that kick drum. Then overhead with the last mic.

[Charlie Miller]

Or you can do 2 channels sbd and 2 channels stage mics (sub-card)

[cleantone]

It is really hard to guess without seeing or being there. I might try a stereo pair above and behind the drummers head angled downward to the kit. Then the second mics either close miking the guitars or in a stereo configuration focused on the guitars with the stereo imaging in mind. You might need to try flipping the drum mics in and out of phase as well as time aligning the two pairs a bit. Or work with placement until things jive.

[rokpunk]

tell the drummer to play louder.

[boojum]

Rock, pop, and jazz seem to sound better recorded with spot mics and mixed down.  A four mic drum kit is the best way to go.  If not, a mic over the drummer's right shoulder can work but not as well.  Drums have such a wide dynamic range a different sounds that the Shure four mic kit (DMK5752) is the standard way to go.  Then you have two channels on the 702/722 for guitar and bass.  Shure's mics are dynamic so no preamp is needed.  A cheap Mackie mixer will mix down the drum tracks for a two track feed into the 744T, too.  But there is no way to fix that drum mix in post.  Just a thought. 

Cheers

[rokpunk]

Shure's mics are dynamic so no preamp is needed. 

True that the Shure drum mic kit (3 SM57's and 1 B52) are all dynamic mics, but you still need a preamp to run the mic into.
You don't need phantom power, but you do need preamps.

[trajhip2000]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I have not tried running x-y, but I have done plenty of M/S which includes x-y (at least all the typical angles) and it hasn't helped all that much. However, I have not run M/S with a sub-card as the mid which might help. I'm also thinking that running subcards a bit closer to the drums in the "wide-ortf" config discussed in the Mics forum is worth trying. My preference is to have a self-contained setup since they don't always play with a full sbd and sbd feeds can be unpredictable anyways, but that's an option I think I'll have to try at some point.

I guess I could sell my 744T and my m222s and get a 788T, but giving up those tubes would be almost as hard as giving up one of my kids (so don't start mailing me offers!).

tell the drummer to play louder.

Already do that before every show! Maybe I need to get him on a lifting program...

Steve

[boojum]

Shure's mics are dynamic so no preamp is needed. 

True that the Shure drum mic kit (3 SM57's and 1 B52) are all dynamic mics, but you still need a preamp to run the mic into.
You don't need phantom power, but you do need preamps.

Right.  Sorry about that.  No phantom needed, pre-amp is needed,  Thanks for catching that.