Topic: B&H Portable-Digital-Recorders-Shootout

[digifish_music]

Another comparison page...mainly just a list of specs, FWIW

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/find/newsLetter/Portable-Digital-Recorders-Shootout.jsp

the pics here give a nice idea of the relative size to a standar hand...

[F.O.Bean]

I dont get why those recorders w/ the mics pointing inward can claim to be XY

Looks like Olympus and Edirol and Tascam have the right idea, at least w/ their stock mics

[Belexes]

Sony is the only one with a roll cage for the externals. 

[boojum]

I dont get why those recorders w/ the mics pointing inward can claim to be XY

Looks like Olympus and Edirol and Tascam have the right idea, at least w/ their stock mics

XY arrays are coincident with one virtually or really on top of the other.  Spaced arrays have some space between the two mics, cards in each case, and have ORTF, DIN, and NOS as examples.  This would make the 6th, 8th and ninth examples XY and the others spaced arrays, but not very spaced.  Inward: XY, outward: not.

[ilduclo]

were these pictures all taken with the guy with the "little hands"?

[moewu4u]

^^ I believe those are George Costanza's hands before the accident. 

[newplanet7]

I don't understand any of them being called xy.
Caps stacked middway through one another at 90*

Doesn't look like any of them come close to me.

[boojum]

^^^^ 6, 8, and 9 in the photo emulate the XY as their axes cross.  They are close to XY but not exactly XY.  The small amount they are off will not make a big difference in phase coherence I would guess.  These are not the perfect answer to recording XY.  Every piece of equipment for sale is a compromise of some sort.  On these guys the compromises are a bit more obvious.

[DSatz]

Right, actually none of these are X/Y. X/Y means coincident in the horizontal plane, with no arrival-time differences between channels, regardless of what direction the sound is coming from. This requires the centers of the two capsules to fall along a common, vertical line. Thus even microphones "touching heads" at their outside corners isn't X/Y.

The directional pattern of the microphones or the angle between their main axes isn't part of the definition; only the coincident placement (with the consequent effect on arrival time) is. In that sense, M/S is legitimately a kind of X/Y.

90 degrees is actually a pretty crappy choice for music recording with cardioids. Cardioid isn't a sharply directional pattern, so at 90 degrees the majority of the sound energy which the two capsules pick up will be identical, resulting in a near-mono recording. A 90-degree cardioid arrangement can be useful for business recording (e.g. meetings in an office, where people are sitting all around a table and everyone is relatively close to the recorder), but for music recording at moderate distances, you need the mikes angled farther apart and/or with greater directivity, or else you're pretty much missing the boat with the whole stereo thing.

--best regards

[crispin]

Dear DSatz
Taking the Sony D50( picture 8 ) as an example...  here the microphones can be swung around to point outwards (a bit like picture 5) but with 120 degrees between the axes (rather than 90 degrees).  I read somewhere - not sure where - that this introduces a phase difference between the left and right since they are ~10 cm apart - and this has a bad effect on the stereo....    Is this so? - or do you suggest the 120 degree setting to improve the stereo separation....?  For instance - if I want to record two instruments (eg piano and violin) should I set the Sony in-between the two instruments with a mic pointing at each in the 120 degree setting - or am I doing a faux-pas?

Sorry for such a basic question

[Belexes]

90 degrees is actually a pretty crappy choice for music recording with cardioids.

I believe on these recorders, the externals mics are omnis.

So shouldn't they be run A-B? Even though there is no spacing?

[crispin]

I am fairly sure that the Sony D50 has cardioid microphones.....

[newplanet7]

I have only run x/y twice at stage lip.
It seemed to work fine up close and tight.

[F.O.Bean]

I have only run x/y twice at stage lip.
It seemed to work fine up close and tight.

I have run XY a total of like 3 times in the 10+ YEARS iVE BEEN RECORDING W/ A hq RIG. i hate xy, THO IT does work IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS, LIKE RECORDING A STACK IN A tiny bar. tHATS THE LAST TIME iVE RUN xy.

but, i GUESS IF YOURE RELYING ON A SMALL HANDHELD RECORder to get your recordings, you probably dont even know what XY is or really means, and your recordings will be suatable enough

[Nick's Picks]

used it 3 times in a decade ...but you hate it ?

XY does not suck...at all.

[F.O.Bean]

used it 3 times in a decade ...but you hate it ?

XY does not suck...at all.

its like my opinion, man

now I might add, I HATE IT w/ SD's LD's, now thats a WHOLE NOTHER BALL OF WAX I even like LD's XY w/ hypers

[Belexes]

I am fairly sure that the Sony D50 has cardioid microphones.....

I dug into this and found they are unidirectional electret condenser mics.  Does unidirectional automatically equal cardioid?

[crispin]

I dug into this and found they are unidirectional electret condenser mics.  Does unidirectional automatically equal cardioid?

I have no idea - but unidirectional must be different from omnidirectional....   but anyway my original question was should one point the microphones outward at 120 degrees - rather than pointing inwards with this 90 degree (x-y?) configuration???

[audBall]

I dug into this and found they are unidirectional electret condenser mics.  Does unidirectional automatically equal cardioid?

Think of "uni-directional" as one direction (i.e. cardioid).  "omni-directional" as, well, all directions.

[taperwheeler]

Just wanted to comment on XY recording.

I was fortunate to have Doug and Jim Oade around when I first began taping.  Doug use to tell me that I couldn't go wrong running XY.  Partially due to my mics (AKG 480 cards) being bass heavy and I assume in the small club that I originally would record, I was close enough to the stacks to get a good directional shot at both sides.  Also, in the tapers section portion of the Oade website it says "With Microphones like the AKG and Microtech Geffel lines there is a noticeable loss of focus or detail with this much spacing and is not recommended for these microphones" in regards to DIN/NOS setups. 
http://www.oade.com/Tapers_Section/micsetup.html
Now some 10 years later have still run only XY.  Partially due to being 'old in the way' and also b/c I'm usually pretty satisfied with my pulls.  I've read dozens of manuals and pamplets on various setups, just have yet to try something different.  Have thought about trying something new, just haven't...I guess fear of not liking the outcome.
After spending a lot of time on TS, leaning towards trying ORTF?

[Gutbucket]

The Tascam, Edirol and the two Marantz recorders are the ones that appear to use omni caps with a spacing of an inch or few between capsules.  Recordings made using the internal mics on any of these could be improved significantly and at no cost by rigging a simple cardboard or foam baffle that the recorder fits into, with the mics on either side of the baffle.  That creates a simple all-in-one rig with Jeklin-disk-like or wedge baffled omnis. 

It might be worth a trying the same with the side-by-side 90 deg cardioid internal mic recorders by using a thinner baffle, which should increase channel separation to either side.

[newplanet7]

I have only run x/y twice at stage lip.
It seemed to work fine up close and tight.

I have run XY a total of like 3 times in the 10+ YEARS iVE BEEN RECORDING W/ A hq RIG. i hate xy, THO IT does work IN CERTAIN SITUATIONS, LIKE RECORDING A STACK IN A tiny bar. tHATS THE LAST TIME iVE RUN xy.

but, i GUESS IF YOURE RELYING ON A SMALL HANDHELD RECORder to get your recordings, you probably dont even know what XY is or really means, and your recordings will be suatable enough

Works up front stage lip fine.
Great imaging IMO.

Not sure about handhelds recorders though.