Topic: Repair or replace 1976 Phase Linear 400 amp?

[Church-Audio]

In a double-blind test all would be the same but the item being tested.  In this case the amps.  Stereo Review ran a "DBT" at a show years ago.  All attendees were invited to participate.  Hands down a cheap receiver beat out an expensive Levinson dual-mono stereo package.  Just another reason that high-end audio hates DBT.  As usual, YMMV     

Hard to believe, AND likely not really true rumor-tech stuff anyway.  Don't you just HATE getting the 'conclusive results' without the glory details making all the difference for chance of knowing truths of the matter. 

In this case. and if being shocked to attention by out-of-technical-context claims, think better to have ability to drill a little deeper knowing the magazine issue and full testing setup details.  Otherwise to me, just another unsubstantiated rumor holding only limited truth for normal user expectations and working conditions.

There is always more to gear then just technical specs.. There is how it actually sounds most of this audiophile bullshit does not sound like anything. And when you ask the so called audiophiles to quantify the actual performance of a peace of gear they use fancy words like sound stage and blackness seem to be the "buzz words" Few of them really have a clue. Most of them would fail miserably any double blind test. If more of us would buy with our ears instead of tech specs then most of us would be listening to much cheaper audio gear then we presently own.. And there would be no need for magic sound crystals or magic AC wall plates... Or fancy Silver Ac cable to connect our power amps too. But to each there own.

[Stagger]

Well, we both own Sound Labs.  That's a start   .  There was a set of mid-80's Maggies in our family for a number of years.  I would rather power them with 100 watts that cost $5 per watt than 500 watts that cost $1 per watt.

Chris

There is an old saying, "If the first watt sounds like crap, why do you want 499 more of them?" I subscribe to this theory myself. My amp puts out right around 65 watts with KT88 tubes in ultralinear mode. Hardly a high powered amp but it sounds great. I have compared it to a number of higher powered (and priced) solid state amps including Conrad Johnson, Threshold, and a Krell integrated but none of them had the sweet mid range and grain free upper registers that I found pleasing to the ear. While Maggies and stats do require more juice than my SF's I still think Chris' advice is valid. Pro gear is designed to fill large spaces at high volume. Accuracy, low THD, and tonal balance are typically secondary considerations on lower to mid priced pro audio amps. I liken it to seeing people driving Hummers in the city. You can do it but it simply is not designed for that use as it is overkill in some areas (in this case off road suspension and power) and lacking in other areas (fuel efficiency, ride comfort, size). Ideally, you can listen to a number of choices with your speakers but I would look for amps that are designed for home use and sound quality over a tank-like pro audio amp. As stated YMMV.

Oh and to Chris' credit he has not once made a product recommendation comprised of one of his products in this thread.

[boojum]

In a double-blind test all would be the same but the item being tested.  In this case the amps.  Stereo Review ran a "DBT" at a show years ago.  All attendees were invited to participate.  Hands down a cheap receiver beat out an expensive Levinson dual-mono stereo package.  Just another reason that high-end audio hates DBT.  As usual, YMMV     

Hard to believe, AND likely not really true rumor-tech stuff anyway.  Don't you just HATE getting the 'conclusive results' without the glory details making all the difference for chance of knowing truths of the matter. 

In this case. and if being shocked to attention by out-of-technical-context claims, think better to have ability to drill a little deeper knowing the magazine issue and full testing setup details.  Otherwise to me, just another unsubstantiated rumor holding only limited truth for normal user expectations and working conditions.

I read the article when I still subscribed to the magazine.  It was about 20 years ago and if I had the foresight to know it would be of such value I would have saved it.  I think it is pretty hard to find differences in amps these days.  The price tag has a powerful effect.  You had better say your new Lirpa mono-block tube amp sounds better than anything else in all of Christendom: the just cost you $12,000 a chassis and you'd look pretty stupid if you didn't say that. 

As I remember the article it was "all things the same" except the amp.  The attendees were the usual mix of propeller heads, geeks, "audiophiles," press hacks and the mentally unbalanced.  You've been to them as have I.  They are fun.  A combo of carnival, science, science fiction and hucksters.  Remember the Shoon-Mok disks??  Those tiny little discs of some wood-like product that improved your sound by I forget how much but it was a lot.  And the price for those little teeny discs was a lot, too.  Many folks bought them and their mysterious powers.  They did nothing.  Anyway, the original question was about the DBT.  Lots of different amps, all the rest stayed the same.  Pioneer beat M-L to the chagrin of all there.  I loved it and I truly regret not saving the issue.

L8R

[boojum]

Well, we both own Sound Labs.  That's a start   .  There was a set of mid-80's Maggies in our family for a number of years.  I would rather power them with 100 watts that cost $5 per watt than 500 watts that cost $1 per watt.

Chris

There is an old saying, "If the first watt sounds like crap, why do you want 499 more of them?" I subscribe to this theory myself. My amp puts out right around 65 watts with KT88 tubes in ultralinear mode. Hardly a high powered amp but it sounds great. I have compared it to a number of higher powered (and priced) solid state amps including Conrad Johnson, Threshold, and a Krell integrated but none of them had the sweet mid range and grain free upper registers that I found pleasing to the ear. While Maggies and stats do require more juice than my SF's I still think Chris' advice is valid. Pro gear is designed to fill large spaces at high volume. Accuracy, low THD, and tonal balance are typically secondary considerations on lower to mid priced pro audio amps. I liken it to seeing people driving Hummers in the city. You can do it but it simply is not designed for that use as it is overkill in some areas (in this case off road suspension and power) and lacking in other areas (fuel efficiency, ride comfort, size). Ideally, you can listen to a number of choices with your speakers but I would look for amps that are designed for home use and sound quality over a tank-like pro audio amp. As stated YMMV.

Oh and to Chris' credit he has not once made a product recommendation comprised of one of his products in this thread.

I appreciate that you like your current tube amp a lot.  That is why you own it.  There is no direct correlation between bucks and quality in audio.  Some good equipment is very expensive; some is not.  Much of the audio world is science fiction.  Super jim-dandy whiz-bang equipment comes and goes.  The stuff which is really good finds people who buy it and buy it a lot.  The over-priced stuff is just that, and finds a very small following.  I am attaching a copy of the specs for the DH-500 which I use.  These are inexpensive amps with good specs.  That was part of the charm of hafler.  You may not be familiar with them.  They are spec'ed at 8 ohms.  I run mine into 4 ohm speakers so these conservative power figures are doubled, and then doubled again because the amp is mono-blocked and I run two.  David Hafler retired and sold the business to some other folks who no longer make the DH-500.  Mine is still cranking along just fine.  There are other good amps out there at reasonable prices, too.

Cheers

[boojum]

In a double-blind test all would be the same but the item being tested.  In this case the amps.  Stereo Review ran a "DBT" at a show years ago.  All attendees were invited to participate.  Hands down a cheap receiver beat out an expensive Levinson dual-mono stereo package.  Just another reason that high-end audio hates DBT.  As usual, YMMV     

Hard to believe, AND likely not really true rumor-tech stuff anyway.  Don't you just HATE getting the 'conclusive results' without the glory details making all the difference for chance of knowing truths of the matter. 

In this case. and if being shocked to attention by out-of-technical-context claims, think better to have ability to drill a little deeper knowing the magazine issue and full testing setup details.  Otherwise to me, just another unsubstantiated rumor holding only limited truth for normal user expectations and working conditions.

There is always more to gear then just technical specs.. There is how it actually sounds most of this audiophile bullshit does not sound like anything. And when you ask the so called audiophiles to quantify the actual performance of a peace of gear they use fancy words like sound stage and blackness seem to be the "buzz words" Few of them really have a clue. Most of them would fail miserably any double blind test. If more of us would buy with our ears instead of tech specs then most of us would be listening to much cheaper audio gear then we presently own.. And there would be no need for magic sound crystals or magic AC wall plates... Or fancy Silver Ac cable to connect our power amps too. But to each there own.

Too bloody true!

[cheshirecat]

Well, we both own Sound Labs.  That's a start   .  There was a set of mid-80's Maggies in our family for a number of years.  I would rather power them with 100 watts that cost $5 per watt than 500 watts that cost $1 per watt.

Chris

There is an old saying, "If the first watt sounds like crap, why do you want 499 more of them?" I subscribe to this theory myself. My amp puts out right around 65 watts with KT88 tubes in ultralinear mode. Hardly a high powered amp but it sounds great. I have compared it to a number of higher powered (and priced) solid state amps including Conrad Johnson, Threshold, and a Krell integrated but none of them had the sweet mid range and grain free upper registers that I found pleasing to the ear. While Maggies and stats do require more juice than my SF's I still think Chris' advice is valid. Pro gear is designed to fill large spaces at high volume. Accuracy, low THD, and tonal balance are typically secondary considerations on lower to mid priced pro audio amps. I liken it to seeing people driving Hummers in the city. You can do it but it simply is not designed for that use as it is overkill in some areas (in this case off road suspension and power) and lacking in other areas (fuel efficiency, ride comfort, size). Ideally, you can listen to a number of choices with your speakers but I would look for amps that are designed for home use and sound quality over a tank-like pro audio amp. As stated YMMV.

Oh and to Chris' credit he has not once made a product recommendation comprised of one of his products in this thread.

I appreciate that you like your current tube amp a lot.  That is why you own it.  There is no direct correlation between bucks and quality in audio.  Some good equipment is very expensive; some is not.  Much of the audio world is science fiction.  Super jim-dandy whiz-bang equipment comes and goes.  The stuff which is really good finds people who buy it and buy it a lot.  The over-priced stuff is just that, and finds a very small following.  I am attaching a copy of the specs for the DH-500 which I use.  These are inexpensive amps with good specs.  That was part of the charm of hafler.  You may not be familiar with them.  They are spec'ed at 8 ohms.  I run mine into 4 ohm speakers so these conservative power figures are doubled, and then doubled again because the amp is mono-blocked and I run two.  David Hafler retired and sold the business to some other folks who no longer make the DH-500.  Mine is still cranking along just fine.  There are other good amps out there at reasonable prices, too.

Cheers

Hafler founded Dynaco which made some legendary amps... I run an ST-70 that I'm very happy with.