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Offline spcyrfc

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Figure 8 mics
« on: January 12, 2010, 06:23:42 PM »
just heard back from sennheiser and it seems they are not coming out with a figure 8 cap for the 8000 series mics. 

i would like to get a pair of figure 8 capsules or microphones.  any suggestions out there for relatively cheap (under 1k per mic) figure 8's?
i used to have a pair of 414's.  looking for something a bit smaller.

i will be running bleumlein and M/S.

thanks,

luke
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Offline dean

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2010, 06:47:20 PM »
just heard back from sennheiser and it seems they are not coming out with a figure 8 cap for the 8000 series mics. 

i would like to get a pair of figure 8 capsules or microphones.  any suggestions out there for relatively cheap (under 1k per mic) figure 8's?
i used to have a pair of 414's.  looking for something a bit smaller.

i will be running bleumlein and M/S.

thanks,

luke

MBHO 603a series has a fig8 capsule.  Don't recall the price breaks on 'em anymore, though the fig8 cap was much more expensive than the other caps.
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2010, 08:26:42 PM »
For under 1K per mic you're prob going to have to go with LDs.
I vote ADK TL.
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Offline H₂O

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2010, 09:07:22 PM »
If your lucky (very lucky) you may find a used Neumann AK20 and KM100 body for right around $1K
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 09:43:47 PM by H2O »
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Offline notlance

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2010, 11:52:59 PM »
Are your looking for a condenser or would a ribbon be OK?

In a condenser it's hard to beat the MKH30.  I know it's over $1k, but it would work nicely with your 8040.  They don't come up for sale used very often and their used price is not much less than the new price.  Still, I doubt you would regret spending the extra money.

If you consider a ribbon, you have more choices.  I have a Beyerdynamic M130 which is a nice little mic.  New they are about $650.

Offline JasonSobel

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2010, 10:20:21 AM »
AKG makes the CK94 (http://www.akg.com/site/products/powerslave,id,235,pid,235,nodeid,2,_language,EN.html) figure-8 cap for the SE 300 B bodies (aka the "Blue Line" mics).

I don't know how much the CK94 caps go for (or how often they come up used), but I'd bet that the cap+body combo would be well under a grand.

Offline landshark

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2010, 06:40:25 PM »
just heard back from sennheiser and it seems they are not coming out with a figure 8 cap for the 8000 series mics.

Oh sunuvab.....I bought my 8000 series planning on a figure 8.  Nuts.
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Offline John Willett

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2010, 06:19:20 AM »
just heard back from sennheiser and it seems they are not coming out with a figure 8 cap for the 8000 series mics. 

Who told you that?

My information is that the MKH 8030 fig-8 is still planned for the system - just not immediately. 


i would like to get a pair of figure 8 capsules or microphones.  any suggestions out there for relatively cheap (under 1k per mic) figure 8's?

The Neumann KK 120 is out now and the new KM-A (analogue version of the KM-D) will be out any moment now (Jan/Feb as I understand) - I know someone doing MS with an MKH 8040 and KK120/KM-A.



Offline spcyrfc

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2010, 11:05:06 PM »
here is the response:
Hi Luke,

While there is some buzz on the internet regarding this new capsule,
I am afraid Sennheiser has nothing to announce or release at this
time.

Best,

Ben Escobedo
Product Specialist - MI


so i suppose i could have misread into the 'announce or release at this time' 

if you have other information, say perhaps a time table or knowledge that it will eventually come out, then i may wait it out.


how tough is it to blow out those ribbon mics?

i'll keep my eyes peeled for the AK or hopefully a used mkh30.
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Offline John Willett

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2010, 07:23:31 AM »
here is the response:
Hi Luke,

While there is some buzz on the internet regarding this new capsule,
I am afraid Sennheiser has nothing to announce or release at this
time.

Best,

Ben Escobedo
Product Specialist - MI


so i suppose i could have misread into the 'announce or release at this time' 

if you have other information, say perhaps a time table or knowledge that it will eventually come out, then i may wait it out.



That's more like it - he just says "no news yet" *not* that it's not coming at all.

Offline DSatz

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2010, 08:57:55 AM »
Right, and he even says "this new capsule" rather than "I'm sorry, but this is all a big mistake; there is no such product even in the planning stage."

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Offline Erick del Valle

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2010, 07:07:30 AM »
What about Ambients?

53mm x 20mm (u$700 each)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/629673-REG/Ambient_Recording_ATE208_ATE_208_Emesser_Figure_8.html

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Offline DSatz

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2010, 09:29:46 AM »
Since I have a certain connection with one of the microphone manufacturers, I generally maintain a policy of not criticizing other microphones, but I hope I can be fair enough if I say something here.

According to Ambient's Web site, this microphone was designed for dialogue recording, and if you look at its frequency response you can see a distinct low-frequency rolloff that starts higher than most people would probably want for music recording.

A low-frequency rolloff for the "S" microphone in an M/S pair causes the stereo separation at lower frequencies to be reduced correspondingly. Now, the biggest problem with most coincident stereo recording methods such as M/S is their lack of perceived spaciousness--a quality which depends critically on the pickup of difference information at low frequencies. So this rolloff, while it makes great sense for dialog and effects recording, is the opposite of what would normally be desired for music recording.

If a microphone has a highly consistent polar pattern--maintained well across the audio frequency spectrum--then equalization becomes a serious option to remedy any shortcomings in its frequency response. The figure-8s that I use also have a low-frequency rolloff--since the physics of this type of condenser microphone dictates one--and I use equalization when decoding most M/S recordings that I make in large recording spaces such as churches or concert halls. One well-known manufacturer of condenser figure-8s actually builds such equalization directly into their microphones, and I would not say that their idea is wrong by any means.

At high and upper-mid frequencies, the polar patterns of this microphone do not appear to be as consistent as one might want for music recording, but at low frequencies they are quite consistent so the bass boost trick might work well. Its signal-to-noise ratio is not the greatest, but for its intended purpose (dialog and effects recording) the microphone looks as if it might be a decent bargain for all I know. If I had built this microphone, I would feel that it was quite an accomplishment if I plugged it in and signals came out of it, so I want to be respectful of people who really can do that.

Moral of the story: It is very difficult to make high-quality microphones on the pressure-gradient end of the spectrum (supercardioid, hypercardioid or figure-8), and what you can get for a reduced price generally doesn't bring you as close to the best as it might on the pressure (omni) end of the spectrum.

The opinions expressed here are my own (on a good day) and do not reflect the views of any church, corporation, fire station, or manufacturer of hair care products. Do not feed these opinions after midnight or immerse them in water. Wash hands repeatedly and don't forget to practice, practice, practice.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2010, 07:56:24 AM by DSatz »
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Offline dean

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2010, 03:11:51 PM »
^ :yack:
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Offline leddy

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2010, 04:31:28 PM »
Quote from: DSatz link=topic=131056.msg1729722#msg
Now, the biggest problem with most coincident stereo recording methods such as M/S is their lack of perceived spaciousness--a quality which depends critically on the pickup of difference information at low frequencies. So this rolloff, while it makes great sense for dialog and effects recording, is the opposite of what would normally be desired for music recording.

It's funny you mention this (and I apologize for the slight hijack).  I was just revisiting some M/S recordings I made (using and Avenson STO omni mid and an MKH30 side), wondering why they didn't sound that great to me.  I tried playing with the low freq. in the side mic and I found I liked it better rolled off a bit.  Basically, it allowed me to add more side before it sounded too phasey.  With more bass in the side mic, I had to keep it's level down a bit and the image was more narrow. 

I've heard others mention the uncorrelated low freq. being key to spacious coincident recordings, but my own experience does not match that so much.  Don't we hear lower frequencies in mono anyway?  Taking an M/S recording and lowering the bass on the side mic, then turning the side mic gain up higher gave me a much more spacious image.  Obviously, we each have our preferences.   :)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 04:34:02 PM by leddy »
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Offline John Willett

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2010, 04:31:37 AM »
Quote from: DSatz link=topic=131056.msg1729722#msg
Now, the biggest problem with most coincident stereo recording methods such as M/S is their lack of perceived spaciousness--a quality which depends critically on the pickup of difference information at low frequencies. So this rolloff, while it makes great sense for dialog and effects recording, is the opposite of what would normally be desired for music recording.

It's funny you mention this (and I apologize for the slight hijack).  I was just revisiting some M/S recordings I made (using and Avenson STO omni mid and an MKH30 side), wondering why they didn't sound that great to me.  I tried playing with the low freq. in the side mic and I found I liked it better rolled off a bit.  Basically, it allowed me to add more side before it sounded too phasey.  With more bass in the side mic, I had to keep it's level down a bit and the image was more narrow. 

I've heard others mention the uncorrelated low freq. being key to spacious coincident recordings, but my own experience does not match that so much.  Don't we hear lower frequencies in mono anyway?  Taking an M/S recording and lowering the bass on the side mic, then turning the side mic gain up higher gave me a much more spacious image.  Obviously, we each have our preferences.   :)

Sounds like you need to read up on Alan Blumlein's Shuffling technique.

Offline DSatz

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2010, 09:03:34 AM »
leddy asked: Don't we hear low frequencies in mono anyway?

No; that's a myth or at least a "mythunderstanding" (promoted unfortunately by some manufacturers of combined subwoofers). We don't localize low frequencies nearly as readily as we can localize in the upper midrange. But directional information at low frequencies (i.e. differences between/among the channels) is as vital to stereo sound reproduction as it is in other frequency ranges; it just serves a different function. At low frequencies it mainly affects the "feel" of the recording and the sense of being immersed in the space where the recording was made rather than the space that you are in when you're listening; localization isn't the point.

Of course there are different tastes and preferences--sometimes a lot different. A lot also depends on how your loudspeakers are set up and how your listening room works acoustically. The big risk when post-processing any recording is that your settings will solve the particular problems of your own playback system and environment, and then will sound odd or inappropriate when someone else listens to them somewhere else over different speakers.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 10:15:40 PM by DSatz »
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Offline leddy

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2010, 03:02:20 PM »
Quote from: DSatz link=topic=131056.msg1729722#msg
Now, the biggest problem with most coincident stereo recording methods such as M/S is their lack of perceived spaciousness--a quality which depends critically on the pickup of difference information at low frequencies. So this rolloff, while it makes great sense for dialog and effects recording, is the opposite of what would normally be desired for music recording.

It's funny you mention this (and I apologize for the slight hijack).  I was just revisiting some M/S recordings I made (using and Avenson STO omni mid and an MKH30 side), wondering why they didn't sound that great to me.  I tried playing with the low freq. in the side mic and I found I liked it better rolled off a bit.  Basically, it allowed me to add more side before it sounded too phasey.  With more bass in the side mic, I had to keep it's level down a bit and the image was more narrow. 

I've heard others mention the uncorrelated low freq. being key to spacious coincident recordings, but my own experience does not match that so much.  Don't we hear lower frequencies in mono anyway?  Taking an M/S recording and lowering the bass on the side mic, then turning the side mic gain up higher gave me a much more spacious image.  Obviously, we each have our preferences.   :)

Sounds like you need to read up on Alan Blumlein's Shuffling technique.

It's my understanding that you add a low frequency boost to the side channel.  Is it more complicated than that?

Perhaps the issue is the MKH30 has more extended bass than my mid mic to begin with.  At some point, I'm sure you can have too much low frequency in the side mic.  Perhaps my mic choices are starting me at that point, now that I think of it.  Anyway, I don't want to hijack anymore than I have. 

Thanks.


 
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2010, 06:03:58 PM »
..A lot also depends on how your loudspeakers are set up and how your listening room works acoustically. The big risk when post-processing any recording is that your settings will solve the particular problems of your own playback system and environment, and then will sound odd or inappropriate when someone else listens to them somewhere else over different speakers.

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Offline DSatz

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2010, 10:23:23 PM »
leddy, I for one don't find this very much of a hijack, since it's directly relevant to the way that figure-8 microphones are used most often.

Blumlein's "shuffler" circuit was actually a way to increase the low-frequency difference energy between a pair of closely-spaced omnidirectional microphones. His famous patent discusses the technique of crossed figure-8s that later became associated with his name, but it was a theoretical discussion, since at the time, he only had access to EMI microphones and they didn't make a high-quality figure-8. His famous early stereo recordings were made with near-coincident omnis plus this "shuffler" circuit. So the shuffler isn't strictly relevant here, except as testimony to the great importance of picking up difference energy at low frequencies.

--best regards
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Offline Tom McCreadie

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2010, 10:23:27 AM »

Blumlein's "shuffler" circuit was actually a way to increase the low-frequency difference energy between a pair of closely-spaced omnidirectional microphones.....

Yes, Blumlein's shuffling technique in his paper could actually be considered as his workaround to derive a Fig-8 mic - which, as you mention, didn't exist as commercial mics at that time - using the mics that he did have at his disposal, viz. omni's. Nowadays the meaning of shuffling has morphed and also diverged a bit. When applied to coincident mics, it is often a gentle bass boost of ca. 1-2dB somewhere between 250 and 650Hz, But it is a far more complicated than that.

By by far the most erudite and thorough treatment of the topic Shuffling has been by Michael Gerzon, and I strongly urge you to get your hands on the following two literature articles:

- "Application of Blumlein Shuffling to Stereo Microphone Techniques", M.A.Gerzon, J. Audio Eng.Soc. Vol 42, no. 6 (1994), p435-453
- "Stereo Shuffling:  New Appproach - Old Technique", M.A. Gerzon, Studio Sound (UK), July 1986, p122-130

Remarkable person was Gerzon. Like many audio giants, he too died far too young. Besides doing the theoretical spadework for the Soundfield mic, he was also ,as I understand, involved in developing the Waves plugin stereo imager modules (which do contain a shuffler).

Offline notlance

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2010, 11:26:51 PM »
"By by far the most erudite and thorough treatment of the topic Shuffling has been by Michael Gerzon, and I strongly urge you to get your hands on the following two literature articles:

- "Application of Blumlein Shuffling to Stereo Microphone Techniques", M.A.Gerzon, J. Audio Eng.Soc. Vol 42, no. 6 (1994), p435-453
- "Stereo Shuffling:  New Appproach - Old Technique", M.A. Gerzon, Studio Sound (UK), July 1986, p122-130"

The second article from Studio Sound is available online here:

http://www.audiosignal.co.uk/Resources/Stereo_shuffling_A4.pdf

"Remarkable person was Gerzon. Like many audio giants, he too died far too young. Besides doing the theoretical spadework for the Soundfield mic, he was also ,as I understand, involved in developing the Waves plugin stereo imager modules (which do contain a shuffler)."

There is a thread here about Mr. Gerzon:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130689.0

Offline DCaswellUK

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2010, 11:09:52 AM »
Hi everybody,
I'm a bit confused by the positioning of the schoeps mk8 in a mid side array..in the picture on the Schoeps page the mk8 is placed 'lying down' alongside the other mic, so that is clear, but could someone help me by explaning the setup for mid side using two schoeps mk8s. Are they both placed horizontally (as the mk8 is when used in conjunction say with the mk4) Are the caps then arranged so the mid mic fig 8 shows 8 while the other is rotated sideways??
Or is the mid mic fig 8 needing to be vertical.
In xy blumlein, can the fig 8s just be crossed as if they were cardioids, or do the caps need to be facing at one another and then the angle created by rotating them?
I'd be very grateful if someone could explain it!
Many thanks,
David Caswell
 

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2010, 12:14:57 PM »
David, I don't have explicit experience with Schoeps, but I think it's a generic question.

In theory, whether the SIDE mic is horizontal or vertical shouldn't matter, as long is it's sides are pointing Left/Right. Most people think of using a card/subcard/hypercard for MID and with an end-address mic, the "horizontal pair" configuration makes sense in regards to mounting.  I saw someone do that with an AT-4050 side/Octava MC012 card mid (I don't know how it sounded, but it caught my eye when I saw it).

With 2 side address mics like my AKG414's, they are generally stacked vertically, probably because it's just easier to mount 2 mics that way, and tradition.

If you want to use a Figure8 for the mid, basically you set it up like blumlein, and rotate the whole assembly 45 degrees so it's point MID=front/back, and SIDE=Left/right.  The idea of "vertical stacking" comes to mind similar to the 414's, but you could have them both horizontal at 90 degrees, much like SD cards are set up for XY.  One possible advantage to vertical stacking is that with the horizontal XY approach you would have the other mic's body partially obstructing one of you Fig-8 lobes, which may (or may not) effect the resulting sound.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 12:17:25 PM by SmokinJoe »
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Offline boojum

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #24 on: February 17, 2010, 12:38:22 PM »
I use the Schoeps CMC64 + CMC68 for MS and use the CMC68 horizontally on the bottom with the CMC64 above and parallel to the CMC68.  I usually use a KC5 cable and the $20 Schoeps plastic connector to attach the CMC64 to the top of the CMC68.  The sound and imaging are excellent and the two combined present a very small package to interfere with sight lines.

I really like this setup as it is small, unobtrusive, easily set up and allows some tweaking in post.  Despite some folks dismissive comments about MS I find it works very well.
Nov schmoz kapop.

Offline DSatz

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2010, 05:34:02 PM »
Hello, my fellow David (Caswell). The picture on the Schoeps site (actually I don't know which picture you mean, but your description of it is clear enough) is appropriate for mid/side recording where the M microphone is "forward facing" or "end-addressed" or "axially addressed" or "end-on" or such terms. That type of arrangement wouldn't work if the M microphone is a figure-8, which is "side-facing" or "side-addressed" or "radially addressed," etc.

For M/S recording with two figure-8s two arrangements are possible, with a variety of options in between if for some reason that suits you better. Arrangement #1 would be with the capsules placed "head to head" vertically. The 0° axis of whichever mike you designate to be S will be facing to the left of the direct sound sources, while the 0° axis of the M microphone will face straight forward toward the center of the sound sources. In other words, it's simply a traditional Blumlein array rotated 45°.

But since the figure-8 pattern is three-dimensional, the S microphone could, if you like, be mounted horizontally as long as its 0° axis still is aiming to the left (as in the Schoeps picture). Or if the mood strikes you, you could tilt the "S" microphone at any other angle you like between the horizontal and the vertical.

The corresponding "twist" for the M microphone would be to install it "non-vertically," but that would invariably create a left-right asymmetry that is exactly what to avoid in such setups.

--best regards
« Last Edit: February 17, 2010, 05:38:39 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline DCaswellUK

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Re: Figure 8 mics
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2010, 08:31:57 AM »
Many thanks for the help and advice. In particular to David Satz.. I have read many of the threads about ms in which you have contributed, and am really grateful for the insight into this technique that your observations have given me..I've had a lot of fun renting different caps for my cmc6s to experiment with all the different combinations possible..The mk8 pair 'blumside' will be the next to try!
Thanks again,
Kind regards,
David Caswell

 

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