Topic: Vintage Home Recordings on Vinyl - Where to start with transfers?

[runonce]

My grandfather was a somewhat well known Cleveland band leader in the 30s. He played guitar, sang, and had an orchestra.

I am lucky to have a nice archive of old bakelite, and aluminum lacquer discs...much like vinyl - but a bit more fragile.

Im looking to get a bit of an education as to what type of playback needles/turntables are needed.

Some of the lacquered discs are huge - like 24 inches across - so I doubt I can get them played  - also the lacquer discs seem MUCH more fragile.

The bakelite discs are 10 inches and - I think - 33 speed.

There are some that are made out of cardboard with a plastic lacquer...

And unfortunately - some of this stuff was not stored very well and is a bit dirty.

So - if anyone has ever been in on a project like this - I'd appreciate any pointers to good resources, or services (as Im sure I cant play these huge discs) - or advice...Thanks!

The first one I will be taking a stab at is a bakelite 10 -

WTAM Midnight Radio
Gene Beecher Vocalist, with the Jack Miles Orchestra
"Trees"
June 24, 1932

flipside - - -

NBC Network WTAM Noon Radio Program (no artist listed, might be same as flipside)

"Tell Tales", "Mona Lisa"

June 20, 1932

[boojum]

LP's did not arrive until the early 50's.  Before that records were 78rpm and played with 3 mil needles.  The 1 mil needles for LP's will not work!  You will get some sound but it will be faint and quite possibly distorted.  So get a cartridge which you can get a 3 mil needle for.  Try the Needle Doctor(http://www.needledoctor.com/) for that.  24" records, well, find a 50's music or radio studio for that one.  10" 78's were common.  There were also 10" LP's, but there were not many.  All but the earliest LP's were flexible.  None of the 78's that I have ever seen were.

Good luck.  You will have a lot of fun.  And clean those records well!  Use distilled water.  Tap water leaves a residue.    ;o)

[rhinowing]

paging moke....

[mfrench]

boojum is right,... 3mil (avg., sometimes 2.5mil) up until you get to "LP" microgroove technology in the early 50's, which are 33 and 45 - Shellacs ruled from the earliest era to the early 50's
Most of the homebrew are done on lacquer-on-aluminum discs and are cut straight to the master. Most commercial early commercial discs were shellac that were pressed from what started as Lacquer-on-Aluminum, from which a metal or glass pressing master was made.

You can simply tie L+ & R+ together and L-  & R- together to create an acceptable monaural signal, but you'll want to get a 3mil stylus. Otherwise, its like tossing a marble down a bowling alley as far as the smaller stylus fitting - it will wander all over the groove, missing tons of detail and adding tons of noise.
GE RPX and VRII are good old cartridges that will outlive all of us
Old Shure cartridges can still be had, as well as some NOS 3mil stylus for them, as well as Stanton and Pickering carts. The Shure, Pickering and Stanton are more contemporary carts that can have 3mil stylus inserted.
If you need to clean them, basic liquid dish soap is best, and a distilled water rinsing. Cleaning can make a huge difference. You can very safely use a boar hair bristle finger nail brush to scrub the grooves (EXCEPTION BEING TO IRREPLACEABLE DISCS - Use due caution).

[mfrench]

16" is about as large as the discs go. The decks are hard to find, and go for a pretty penny!

[runonce]

Thanks for all the replies here. Needle Doctor is a cool site - thanks for that.

I'll try to post a few pictures of the various discs later...

[runonce]

One thought - am I better off using a modern turntable or trying to use one that was contemporary to this age? I have a half decent collection of older and more recent devices.

Example - I have an Ensign turntable that is built into a 50s console - looks really mint, I think it works. Plays 78-16 speeds. I have the needle number - its a Jensen, one of those flipable designs. I'll be looking it up.

[heath]

I handle transfers like this for a living, and I use a modern table and cartridges/styli to play back 16" transcriptions. 

As far as EQ goes, I use this baby since it can handle just about any era:

http://www.kabusa.com/eqsmk12.htm

[runonce]

Here are a few pics - I get the big ones out later. The record that is standing up is a modern LP for comparison.

Any comments of the era of technology here...? These were actually done by my great-grandfather, who's son was the band leader. I know he had a wire recorder too...and I can see some evidence that a few of these discs are copies from another source.

[mfrench]

how long do you want to take to refurb an old deck for the process?  This is a substantial hurdle.
I just finished one, from 1955, that took most of a year to get to cooperate, and to run well enough to spin music.
You'll need to find a deck that can spin at 78rpm, and be variably adjustable at that speed (and others), because they didn't have such set standards back then, and things run all over the gamut for speeds.
Have you spun up the old Ensign? Does it spin quietly?
most of those old decks are driven by idler wheels which hardened 40 years ago. They now sound all nasty and scratchy, and will likely need a re-rubbering. You can do allot with those old decks, if you're handy and patient.


Heath,
What kind of decks do you use for transcriptions?

[heyitsmejess]

altho i have nothing to add to this thread, i would like to say that this is really, really cool, and would love to hear some of these when they have been transfered

[mfrench]

Heres a story of refurbishing a 40 year old deck, and, what came about just after I finished it. I posted it on a turntable builders forum about a year ago, and have cut and pasted it here:

OK,....
So, I've been building, spending, 'cipherin, spending, installing, tweaking, bending, obsessing, spending.
Finally it comes to fruition, just this past week, and the build is complete.

So, just tonight, Sarge, Heidi, the spousal unit, *provider of exceptional service for 30 years, is cleaning out an old family heirloom, a secretary (*Hank Hill moment). In it, she finds this old record in the bottom drawer, and because of all of my recent 78 acquisitions, she thought it was one of mine. So she throws it on the ottoman, and goes about her business, assuming I'll find its home, and put it away.
At any rate, I did find it, and, peeking thru a torn sleeve that it was in, was a wonderful red record (I love colored vinyl). So, curiously, I opened it, and found, this old Recordio disc:







This is an old 78 record made by her father back on July 4th, 1955. Its my wife, Heidi, at about a year and a half, and her sister, who was about 4.
He captured my wife saying a few baby words, like mama, nana, and just blabbering.
He captured also her sister singing Davey Crockett - King of the Wild Frontier.
I brought it back to her and showed it to her, and she just lit up.

Long story made more rambling,...
Heidi is off work this week, because her mother passed away late last week. Her father passed on a few years back.
We've been on a bit of a reminiscing thing this week, going back to her old digs, haunts, etc.
We've had this secretary for probably 20 years, and we had no idea that this disc was in the bottom drawer.
So, ultimately, the timing of the find is beyond coincidental - Its almost kind of spooky.

So, I broke out my portable recording rig, and ran a copy of the recording to digital for her (haven't edited it yet).
I'll post the Davey Crockett song in a bit. Cool stuff.
The quality is pretty grainy, but, its just made Sarge all grinny and happy - which ultiamtely makes the effort and expense  of this build-out worth every cent.

At any rate,.... the overall timing of the entire project, the finding of the record, etc., quite strange.

I just thought I'd share,... thanks for hearing me out.

[heath]

I use a KAB Transcriber, which is essentially a modified Vestax BDT-2600 for my transcription transfers

I also have a EMT-950 that I sometimes use for LPs and 78s.

[mfrench]

You couldn't drag me away from that EMT deck. *Those demand huge dollars these days.
There is something about idler drives that just cannot be touched by belts or direct drives. I've seen people use the acronym of PRaT with them, Pace, Rhythm, and, Timing.
The older decks had incredibly heavy platters and strong motors that kept a pace that is almost hallmark. The heavy platters act as a flywheel, that once to speed, take along time to spin down. That flywheel effect nullifies stylus drag through the heavy movements of music - pacing.
Pacing was the first thing that I noticed upon firing up my first idler renovation. It was just so rock steady.

/rambling

* at auction, opening bid amount of nearly $2200usd
http://cgi.ebay.com/Stunning-EMT-948-turntable-EMT-929-arm-/220612098931?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Turntables&hash=item335d817b73

[mfrench]

Runonce,

Where are you at in this big wild world of ours?
I ask, because there is an abundance of a certain old turntable type that are incredibly accessible in some areas, and rare as chickens teeth in others.  Where they are rare, they're no longer affordable (north america). They make great transcription tables with little effort.

[runonce]

South Central PA - middle of nowhere...or the middle of everywhere...near DC/philly/pitt/harrisburg/baltimore/

[Johnny Thunder]

Heres a story of refurbishing a 40 year old deck, and, what came about just after I finished it. I posted it on a turntable builders forum about a year ago, and have cut and pasted it here:

OK,....
So, I've been building, spending, 'cipherin, spending, installing, tweaking, bending, obsessing, spending.
Finally it comes to fruition, just this past week, and the build is complete.

So, just tonight, Sarge, Heidi, the spousal unit, *provider of exceptional service for 30 years, is cleaning out an old family heirloom, a secretary (*Hank Hill moment). In it, she finds this old record in the bottom drawer, and because of all of my recent 78 acquisitions, she thought it was one of mine. So she throws it on the ottoman, and goes about her business, assuming I'll find its home, and put it away.
At any rate, I did find it, and, peeking thru a torn sleeve that it was in, was a wonderful red record (I love colored vinyl). So, curiously, I opened it, and found, this old Recordio disc:







This is an old 78 record made by her father back on July 4th, 1955. Its my wife, Heidi, at about a year and a half, and her sister, who was about 4.
He captured my wife saying a few baby words, like mama, nana, and just blabbering.
He captured also her sister singing Davey Crockett - King of the Wild Frontier.
I brought it back to her and showed it to her, and she just lit up.

Long story made more rambling,...
Heidi is off work this week, because her mother passed away late last week. Her father passed on a few years back.
We've been on a bit of a reminiscing thing this week, going back to her old digs, haunts, etc.
We've had this secretary for probably 20 years, and we had no idea that this disc was in the bottom drawer.
So, ultimately, the timing of the find is beyond coincidental - Its almost kind of spooky.

So, I broke out my portable recording rig, and ran a copy of the recording to digital for her (haven't edited it yet).
I'll post the Davey Crockett song in a bit. Cool stuff.
The quality is pretty grainy, but, its just made Sarge all grinny and happy - which ultiamtely makes the effort and expense  of this build-out worth every cent.

At any rate,.... the overall timing of the entire project, the finding of the record, etc., quite strange.

I just thought I'd share,... thanks for hearing me out.

Any time's a great time to reminisce with family. This is an AWESOME STORY! Thanks for sharing about it here and giving us a little peek into a day in your life. I guess I've got a soft heart. Things like this just kinda get to me, you know?

-JT

[mfrench]

thanks, JT

That record was found after a month of renovating a turntable that had 78rpm capability. I never had that speed option before.
It also came the same week that her mom passed on (a year or so ago now), and at a time of heavy reflection. So, serendipity did rear its head here.

Runonce:
Talk about your player.
Take some pictures of the underpinnings - up the skirt shots. It might be worth bringing to life, it might be a gem. Or it might be a dog. I looked for any sort of similar deck in a google search of Ensign TT, and found nothing -  So its of unknown quantity/quality.
You can get the old idler wheels overhauled for $35'ish by a gent named Ed Crockett -- search: idler wheels Ed Crockett - hes one of few left that service them, and very well regarded. This is assuming that its an idler drive (but as old as you say, it likely is).
At any rate,... Shoot some pics, quality closeup macro, if you have that ability. I can take a look at it via pics and see if its worth doing anything with, or, if you need to move on, and can make some rec's.
Old Dual 1009 and 1019 are very worthy project decks, and aren't too far out of reach, yet (vintage decks are upwardly progressive in their pricing right now).

[runonce]

thanks, JT

That record was found after a month of renovating a turntable that had 78rpm capability. I never had that speed option before.
It also came the same week that her mom passed on (a year or so ago now), and at a time of heavy reflection. So, serendipity did rear its head here.

Runonce:
Talk about your player.
Take some pictures of the underpinnings - up the skirt shots. It might be worth bringing to life, it might be a gem. Or it might be a dog. I looked for any sort of similar deck in a google search of Ensign TT, and found nothing -  So its of unknown quantity/quality.
You can get the old idler wheels overhauled for $35'ish by a gent named Ed Crockett -- search: idler wheels Ed Crockett - hes one of few left that service them, and very well regarded. This is assuming that its an idler drive (but as old as you say, it likely is).
At any rate,... Shoot some pics, quality closeup macro, if you have that ability. I can take a look at it via pics and see if its worth doing anything with, or, if you need to move on, and can make some rec's.
Old Dual 1009 and 1019 are very worthy project decks, and aren't too far out of reach, yet (vintage decks are upwardly progressive in their pricing right now).

thanks mfrench - I may have one of those Dual models...will check.

I'll get some pictures of the Ensign shortly...

[runonce]

mfrench - Dual 1015? Pics to follow...

[mfrench]

If it has a heavy zinc(? I think its zinc; if not aluminum - heavy!) platter, and the round can motor - gem.
I'm sorry, but I'm not 100% up to speed on Dual, other than a couple of target models. The 1015 sounds right in there, doesn't it?!

[mfrench]

the 1015 looks to be of the right lineage.
http://www.vinylengine.com/library/dual/1015.shtml
The deck should feel really heavy in the hand due to the platter weight.

[runonce]

the 1015 looks to be of the right lineage.
http://www.vinylengine.com/library/dual/1015.shtml
The deck should feel really heavy in the hand due to the platter weight.

Put it to you this way - if I rotate the deck, the patter stays still! Its pretty heavy...here's the Ensign top view and the Dual - top and bottom. I'll get the back off the Ensign this evening...it's tube amp is humming like it has a dry cap - so I'll have to hook it to something else...Playing a modern LP, it seemed like its speed was ok, but it really wouldnt track, hopefully just needle gunk.

[mfrench]

that's your working deck then. The other can be a side project.
First - get it out of its guitar-body box plinth, and mount it to something solid like a stack of plywood, or, stone.
Idlers got a bad reputation for rumble brought out by the original plinth resonating the idler contact.
That can be drastically reduced by a massive plinth and minimizing the cutout pattern for it.

If its a sprung plinth, spring suspended - rebuild that part, and rigidly couple the top deck to a new base. Get rid of the springs.
The motor and bearing should be lubed as well. Fairly simple processes. Make sure that the wheel and the platter subsurface that it interfaces with are 100% clean.
If its the motor that I'm hoping to see, its considered one of the best turntable motors ever.

[dorrcoq]

South Central PA - middle of nowhere...or the middle of everywhere...near DC/philly/pitt/harrisburg/baltimore/

Very exciting project!  If it was me, even though it would be fun to do myself (or at least until I fucked them up  ), I would send them to Heath and get them done right.  Especially since he is in the Pittsburgh area, so not too far from you.

[splumer]

One thing that no one mentioned is that a lot of those discs will deteriorate with every pass of a stylus. Do them right, or have them done right, the first time, because it could be the only chance you get. Unfortunately, you're not in Cleveland, because a local college just opened a center in conjunction with the Rock Hall that *may* be able to transfer those. Another option is there's a radio show on a local college station that plays really old recordings of any genre. I've heard it a few times, and he's played wax cylinders, gramophones, all sorts of stuff, and he might know or be able to point you to someone who has the gear and expertise. If you're interested, I'll look into it for you.

[mfrench]

the shellac stuff is really quite hard. They'll break far sooner than wear out. DO NOT, or, DO NOT TRY TO FLEX SHELLAC. It will shatter. It should be handled and stored in such a way as to prevent any lateral flexing.
It can take passes with steel needles and tracking weights that graduate in half ounce steps.  ex: modern "needles" can be right on at 1.75 grams or broken in tenths of grams over that, in comparison. The tracking force loads for the classic cartridges, like a GE RPX is 8grams, and can go to 14grams without hurting the shellac record.  The later mono cartridges, like the GE VRII, started running at half the RPX load, at 4 grams, but thats still twice over modern carts. The RPX's were just a tad older and closer to the shellac era, and the VRII is closer to the 33/45 era, while still carrying the 78's range.
You can also get stanton/pickering and Shure cart/stylus that do 4 grams with 3mil needles for 78's

I'm not speaking of the homebrew discs with this, but the typical commercial grade shellacs can really be borne down on. I'd go with the more cautious 4gram tracking force for the rare family discs.

[runonce]

Ok - sorry to bump an old thead - still have this project in play - and its gotten even bigger.
Thanks again for all the upthread info and replies...

I never got anywhere with the Dual - and I wasn't able to get satisfactory signal from anything else...

In the meantime - I've found 3 more boxes of 10 and 12 inch discs of my grandfathers band, on various radio networks.

So I probably have over 200 discs now.

My great-grandfather - who made the recordings - was pretty good about lableing stuff - so most have Date, Network, Song List.
I've started compiling a little database of all the songs represented in this collection.

Just yesterday I scored a Webster-Chicago 3 speed turntable - with a nice looking Shure P76AF Rollover cartridge - missing its needles though.
And it wont power up - so I have to check where power is going - and not going - hopefully this will be an oxidized contact somewhere.
I have another vintage turntable from Stromberg-Carlson console to look at also - deep in the garage...

Are the black, solid plastic discs made of "lacquer" as well? I think I called them bakelite - just wondering which is correct?

And - It sounds like I shouldnt be afraid to clean the solid discs myself (with the proper solution)??
 - the lacquer coated aluminum, I might leave to a more experienced person.

Also - if I use vintage gear - Im assuming I should be using a Crystal phono pre stage?
I just cleaned up a nice old Claricon receiver that has both "X-TAL" and "MAGNETIC" phono inputs...so perhaps I can take a Tape Out from that device.

thanks again for the folks who replied upthread...!

[dorrcoq]

I had forgotten about your project.  Almost two years later, it's still pretty exciting to read about.

[chicofishhead]

This is an interesting thread to me because at Christmastime my mom and I were going through some old stuff she had collected from her parents' house.  We found a Wilcox-Gay Recordio disc.  The only labeling in indecipherable.  Online research reveals it's from around 1944.  I borrowed a friend's Crosley turntable that goes 78 and transfered the recording.  It's extremely scratchy, like it had been played many times.  One side sounds like a recording of a radio broadcast (possibly the beginning of a church show), and the other is really quiet, possibly someone sermonizing.  The only thing I can understand is someone saying "the end" a couple times right before it runs out.  I wish I could ask my grandparents what the significance of the disc is.

[mfrench]

You'll probably need a 3mil needle to get the best playback of those shellac and recordio discs. Most modern needles are.7mil, with some older, earlier LP needles being 1mil.  Modern LP's use .7mil (on average, with some smaller, like .5mil)
 
The preamp is a variable that just takes time and listening to know if you need it or not.  The ceramic cartridges, and early magnetic cartridges of the day output such a hot signal that they'll brickwall more modern RIAA-corrected preamps. Early shellacs, the ones recorded/mastered acoustically don't have any EQ'ing, and the later ones have variable, pre-standardization era EQ'ing.

Pre WWII records are definitely shellac.  During WWII there was a giant movement towards recycling shellac records for the war effort, because it was needed for waterproofing army gear.  So, literal trainloads of shellac records were recycled towards that effort.  This also "spawned" the new movement towards more modern formulas like vinyl (PVC), and ushered in the era of the first LP records around 1949.  Those early LP's took the 1mil needles; shellac took 3mil needles; and after around the mid to later fifties, there was a move towards the smaller .7mil needles.

Adding:
During WWII, some labels, for example, Columbia Records, started using an inner core coated in shellac. The inner core was quite often cardboard, or thick matted paper, as an inner core.

[runonce]

UPDATE:

I've been working with a fellow from the Ohio Broadcast Archive and Museum to get some of the bigger, 16 inch transcription discs done.

Here's a bit from the first batch - these disks were among the worst in terms of condition.  But the end result isn't too bad.

http://rovingsign.com/lotusgarden/genebeecherorchestra1937WTAM.m3u

Not totally sure what they are doing as far as editing - not much as far as I can tell.
I was able to tighten it up a bit in Audacity...but they only sent me mp3 files - or at least the only ones I've gotten -so far- are mp3.
(I got these through my uncle...so I have to get back with the fellow - we did discuss formats earlier)

I suspect it would be best to have the wavs, since they need to be edited.

I've been using Audacity's RIAA eq - not sure it's needed - maybe its just a coincidence that curve works.

[ebrjvd]

First of all, start with thorough cleaning of the grooves.
Don't use RIAA EQ, it was used only from the 50s onwards for 33/45 rpm records.
Best is to transfer 78 rpm disks with linear preamp, and later apply EQ using your ears, since each brand used its own EQ.

Merry Christmas!
Jos

[I'm doing transfers of old recordings (any format) for archives.]

[thunderbolt]

I use one of these for my 78s and pre-RIAA records:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/0308/rek_o_kut.htm

It helps you dial in the proper equalization curves, and the results can be stunning.