Author Topic: Vobbly tapes during transfer: cassette --> harddrive (Read 6311 times)

Jonas Karlsson · « **on:** January 14, 2011, 10:45:00 AM »

Hey everybody!

Thought I give a last try to transfer my old cassette-recordings (1992-1998, SONY WMD3) to my harddrive, but the tapes are either worn out or the tapedeck is.

At the beginning (first 5-10 minutes) of almost every 90 min. cassette I get a "vobbly" sound, where it goes like a rollercoaster - up and down with the treble and so on.

Anything one can do about it? I've included a sample from one of the worst sounding tapes.

Every piece of advice is welcome! I really need to save these in good shape! Don't care about hiss and so on, this is what disturbes me...

/Jonas Karlsson, Sweden

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=6ETNUKL4

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #1 on:** January 14, 2011, 11:14:30 AM »

Found this answer to a similar question on the web: "when our tapes used to play wrong. my dad used to wind them up because sometimes they had got loose. try it, it used to work for us. not on rewind do it with the two white circle bits on the tape." What do you think? Could it help? I could rewind all of my master cassettes with this tecnique a couple of times before it stopped. Perhaps I should try with this, if nobody else has another tip?

/Jonas

beatkilla · « **Reply #2 on:** January 14, 2011, 11:42:02 AM »

Try adjusting the azimuth.May have spelled it wrong. Try another tape deck and adjust the azimuth.

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #3 on:** January 14, 2011, 12:40:10 PM »

Thanks for the tip beatkilla!

Although, I've been told that the azimuth adjustment will help if the tapes sound low on the high end, but it won't help the vobbly beginnings... I don't own a cassette-deck at the moment but will get a used one soon for the transfer.

I hope the "winding-up" will do the trick, unless someone has more tips n' tricks?

/Jonas

nl · « **Reply #4 on:** January 14, 2011, 12:54:16 PM »

Check the belts on your cassette deck. That could cause speed issues.

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #5 on:** January 14, 2011, 01:29:32 PM »

The belts? Not really sure what that is $:-\$

kirk97132 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 14, 2011, 01:31:40 PM »

Long story short odds are that your playback deck needs servicing to correct the issue you are having

flipp · « **Reply #7 on:** January 14, 2011, 01:42:39 PM »

Could be the tape stock itself has stretched. I have a bunch of Denon D8 cassettes (I think that's the "model" designation) that all have a nasty sound for the first 2-3 minutes because the tape stock has stretched. Pulling a small loop out of the case shows the stock is narrower and has a slight "ripple" to the surface that isn't found in the middle of the spool, only at each end. Maxell, TDK and Fuji do not exhibit this characteristic and since all were recorded and played back on the same equipment I'm sure it is bad stock and not the decks.

runonce · « **Reply #8 on:** January 14, 2011, 02:06:09 PM »

Both the Sony D3 and D6 were notorious for not tracking properly at the beginning of tapes.

You may have to resort to some sort of auto-azimuth deck...

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #9 on:** January 14, 2011, 02:23:31 PM »

Quote from: runonce on January 14, 2011, 02:06:09 PM

Both the Sony D3 and D6 were notorious for not tracking properly at the beginning of tapes.

You may have to resort to some sort of auto-azimuth deck...

Ok, this was news to me. I found an old Walkman now and played one tape that was really bad and wobbly and voila' - it does sound better, but not perfect.

Do you have any suggestions for the "auto-azimuth deck"? Google'd it and found nothing other than expensive Nakamichi models...

/Jonas

Frequincy · « **Reply #10 on:** January 14, 2011, 05:00:59 PM »

I think the Nakamichi Dragon is the only auto-azimuth deck Nakamichi built. I have a prestine one. I don't know if other manufacturers built decks with that feature or not? It might just be bad tape stock as stated up above and not even the greatest deck can help with that.

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #11 on:** January 15, 2011, 08:02:54 AM »

Seems like the NAD 6325 also has some settings for azimuth... they call it play trim. Also it got 3 heads and I can get one really cheap... should I go for it? Not used very much the owner says.

/Jonas

runonce · « **Reply #12 on:** January 15, 2011, 08:13:53 AM »

Quote from: jontebus on January 15, 2011, 08:02:54 AM

Seems like the NAD 6325 also has some settings for azimuth... they call it play trim. Also it got 3 heads and I can get one really cheap... should I go for it? Not used very much the owner says.

/Jonas

The wobblyness likely happened during recording - its recorded onto the tape.

You need a deck that can follow that wobbly track...so you will truly need a deck with auto-azimuth.

A Manual azimuth deck wont help...

have you played these on another deck to see if they have the same wobbly effect?

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #13 on:** January 15, 2011, 09:12:55 AM »

The wobbly effekt was actually reduced a lot when I winded the tapes up with a pencil. It sounds much better, even on a crappy Walkman.

Will be getting a tapedeck soon, probably the NAD 6325, to see what it can produce.

I can't afford the Nakamichi Dragon or whatever (they cost up to $1000!!). Will be looking into any chance of renting one of of those though, to see if I spot any difference!

/Jonas

kirk97132 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 15, 2011, 11:50:38 AM »

Without hearing the tape it is hard to tell exactly what is wrong. What it seems you are describing is an effect from the tape speed not being constant. A condition that can be caused by various things but the common culprits are belts, the belt drive wheels and the pinch roller. Basicly all the parts that have rubber on them. The fact that a tape sound "clears" up once you have played it some is due to the lessening of the weight of the tape that the machine has to pull. You might try a few FF & rewinds also to unpack the tape and get it aligned on the spools. A misaligned tape on a spool creates extra drag that can affect playback. Since you say the tape sounds better on a different deck AND better once you rewound it it does appear that your home deck is probably the cause. But Azimuth is only the alignment of a head. That alignment can vastly improve a tapes sound during playback but in most cases it is a setting that can be made and then left alone. The misalignment problem described on the D5 & D6 is one that they did not match up with other decks. Not so much that they changed during playback. After having gone through a few D6's I speak from experience. A condition like that where the Azimuth is way out you can hear the other track playing backwards, but that is an extreme case. The Nak Dragon does the adjustment automatically, but it can be done on most higher end decks by hand. I'd see if you can't just borrow a friends deck first and see if the problem goes away. This problem is also more prevalent on 100 min tapes and even more so on 110 minute tapes. They were made of a thinner Mylar and are known to stretch easily, like the tape width problem described earlier. There is also a possibility that the tape has this effect recorded on it and there is no way to fix that other than load it up in a DAW and adjust pitch for each little section. If ti is a speed problem that happened during recording then it is a tough one to try and fix, but since it seems to disappear on other decks it might not be.

runonce · « **Reply #15 on:** January 15, 2011, 12:39:44 PM »

Quote from: kirkd on January 15, 2011, 11:50:38 AM

There is also a possibility that the tape has this effect recorded on it and there is no way to fix that other than load it up in a DAW and adjust pitch for each little section. If ti is a speed problem that happened during recording then it is a tough one to try and fix, but since it seems to disappear on other decks it might not be.

I betting on this ^^^

But - not sure I get your suggestion about the DAW and pitch...? Azimuth isnt really about pitch...its about tracking along the recorded path.

If its wobbly-ness is recorded in...playback on a Dragon is about the only cure...

newplanet7 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 15, 2011, 05:41:04 PM »

I think what he means by vobbily is the sound fades in and out almost like phasing.
I'd bet the tape is stretched.

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #17 on:** January 15, 2011, 07:08:39 PM »

If phasing is something that sounds like people are walking in front of me and not giving me a free passage to the PA, so yes. I mean lika phasing

But it comes and goes. Almost gone after winding the tapes up as I said though. Got the NAD-deck I was talking about, and they sound great through my TERRATEC iVinyl!

/Jonas

newplanet7 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 15, 2011, 09:53:23 PM »

The phasing that when you're in a huge outdoor venue in the back and the wind is howling kinda phasing

anr · « **Reply #19 on:** January 16, 2011, 01:51:14 PM »

If all else fails, I'd be tempted to try transferring the tape to a better, preferably new, shell. Fiddly, but you may find the new slip sheets and pad/spring improve matters.

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #20 on:** January 20, 2011, 05:24:24 PM »

When saying new shell, do you mean a completely new or shall I reuse a shell that sounds good?

I've transfered quite a lot shows so far, and I've found some tapes that sounds truly great! the hiss can be reduced very, very well, but the wobblyness is harder... Actually broke the tape for one tape, so I had to screw the shell up to fasten it to the roll once again and it worked like a charm so I'm not afraid of opening other tapes too...

/Jonas

anr · « **Reply #21 on:** January 22, 2011, 04:27:35 AM »

Jonas, sorry I was away. I've PM'd.

sunjan · « **Reply #22 on:** January 22, 2011, 09:07:56 PM »

Quote from: jontebus on January 15, 2011, 08:02:54 AM

Seems like the NAD 6325 also has some settings for azimuth... they call it play trim.

I realize you already got the NAD deck, but to set things straight the play trim has nothing to do with azimuth. It's supposed to adjust bias, but there's hardly any audible difference anyway. I got fooled by this too (maybe you've found my earlier postings).
Bottom line, the NAD made some OK decks, but you should still adjust playback azimuth with a screwdriver.

Chilly Brioschi · « **Reply #23 on:** January 23, 2011, 06:49:34 AM »

Start by replacing those old shells and pads, then repacking the tape with a FF»RR.

DO NOT continue to play a tape in a deck that causes audible issues.
The playback itself may be causing irreversable tape damage!

Good luck!

dmonkey · « **Reply #24 on:** January 23, 2011, 12:52:53 PM »

I used to have a D6 with the notorious phasing problem. Always seemed like a gamble going out to tape a show -- never knew what I was going to get. Quite a few of my would-be prized masters have the phase-o-rama problem. Argh!

Good luck.

Frequincy · « **Reply #25 on:** January 25, 2011, 08:19:34 PM »

Quote from: Southbound on January 23, 2011, 06:49:34 AM

DO NOT continue to play a tape in a deck that causes audible issues.
The playback itself may be causing irreversable tape damage!

This was a point I kept thinking about the whole life of this thread, but forgot to mention.

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #26 on:** January 27, 2011, 03:13:18 AM »

The new NAD cassettedeck is ok, but I've bought a cleaning cassette that (in no professional way, but at least a bit) will demagnetize the deck and clean it. It's called Nagaoka CD-1. I know a defluxer, like the Han-D-mag would be the best, but it's too damn expensive for me right now...

Also I'll buy some alcohol to clean the heads and things inside the deck, exactly what I'm not sure. Could anyone give help here? Included a picture.

Have also bought new shells for the tapes that sounds worst (that have always done so) and will change those to see if I spot any difference. I know that a cassettedeck that is magnetized will destroy the tapes every time I play the tape on it (erase it slowly every play) but this deck is hardly used and actually sound pretty good.

Not sure how to open this deck to adjust the azimuth with a screwdriver, and not even sure I need to do so - I might need it on a really used deck, but the stereoimage sounds fine and so on...

I'm really thankful for all of your tips folks, it's worth a LOT!!!

sunjan · « **Reply #27 on:** January 27, 2011, 05:08:54 AM »

Hej Jonte,

Azimuth adjustment is fairly straigthforward. I have the same model, NAD 6325.
Ideally, you should use a plastic (ie non metallic) screwdriver, but I've been OK with a plain non-magnetic steel phillips screwdriver, as long as you're careful not to touch the play head.

The playback azimuth screw is visible on your photo just to the left of the head.
The plastic front lid is very easy to slide off and remove. This way, you can turn the screw while the tape is playing.
Use headphones and listen while turning, you should be able to tune into a point where the sound is optimal. It's very obvious once you listen.
For this NAD deck, the sweet spot should normally not be more than half-a-turn from the factory position of the screw. Turn it half way to the left, then half a turn to the right.
If you have many tapes recorded with the same walkman, the azimuth should be more or less the same for all tapes, meaning you won't have to adjust each tape individually once you found a spot that you're satisfied with.

Jonas Karlsson · « **Reply #28 on:** January 27, 2011, 05:47:32 AM »

Quote from: sunjan on January 27, 2011, 05:08:54 AM

Hej Jonte,

Azimuth adjustment is fairly straigthforward. I have the same model, NAD 6325.
Ideally, you should use a plastic (ie non metallic) screwdriver, but I've been OK with a plain non-magnetic steel phillips screwdriver, as long as you're careful not to touch the play head.

The playback azimuth screw is visible on your photo just to the left of the head.
The plastic front lid is very easy to slide off and remove. This way, you can turn the screw while the tape is playing.
Use headphones and listen while turning, you should be able to tune into a point where the sound is optimal. It's very obvious once you listen.
For this NAD deck, the sweet spot should normally not be more than half-a-turn from the factory position of the screw. Turn it half way to the left, then half a turn to the right.
If you have many tapes recorded with the same walkman, the azimuth should be more or less the same for all tapes, meaning you won't have to adjust each tape individually once you found a spot that you're satisfied with.

WOW!!!

What a difference!!!

Sure, there is a lot of hiss, but tapes are tapes - but there is a VERY visible difference now! Excellent!

The only downside is that I have to transfer all of the tapes once again, but hell - it'll be worth it!

Thanks a lot my friend!

I also got new shells to try to fix up the worst sounding tapes, and that might have helped a bit too.

Getting the anti magnetize+cleaning tape tomorrow - will run that too to see if I spot any difference, this made my day!

All hail sunjan!

Author Topic: Vobbly tapes during transfer: cassette --> harddrive (Read 6311 times)

nl

kirk97132

runonce

runonce

kirk97132

runonce