Topic: Sony ECM-MS957 -> 1/8" input MT2 (low input level problem)

[bonesinc]

Hi all,

I recently bought a MicroTrack II to replace my old Sony MZ-R30 MiniDisc recorder.
The 1/4" line level inputs work fine (with a customized cable) but I'm having a big problem with the 1/8" mic input.

The microphone I'm using is a Sony ECM-MS957 MS stereo electret microphone, self powered with 1 AA battery. The output signal of this microphone has always been a little bit hot and I always had to carefully set the recording level rather conservative on my minidisc recorder.

With the MT2 there is barely a signal at all. I have to crank up the mic input level to max (which introduces lots of noise) to have a reasonable audible level.

I do have another stereo electret microphone (also powered by 1 AA battery) which is a Superlux E522 X/Y microphone. Not the best microphone, I know, but with the gain set to max the signal is almost inaudible.

The input IS set to 1/8" input, recording settings 44k1Hz/16bit or 96kHz/24bit, all the same.

Did I get a faulty unit or am I missing something?

Thank you all in advance,
Matthieu

[jagraham]

i also use an ecm957.  i prefer my ca-11s but the ecm is a great backup mic.  great if used in the sweet spot.  anyway, i see no reason the mic would give a weak signal.  have you tried a 1/8>1/4 adapter to see if it might be a faulty input on the MT?  have you tried using the mic on another recorder or going mic>pre>headphones to see if the mic may be faulty?  hope this helps narrow it down.

[bonesinc]

The 957 works fine with my old minidisc recorder. So does my cheap Superlux x/y microphone.

I also build some binaural mics with panasonic electrets which need plugin power to operate and they are working fine with my minidisc recorder as well and not at all with my MT2.

Weird...

[fmaderjr]

I can only think of 2 possibilities:
  1) The plug in power is not working properly or there is some other problem with the 1/8 input. Send it back for service, or better yet return it if you can and buy a Tascam DR-07 instead. The Tascam is a much better choice than the MTII for someone who does not need phantom power or optical in.
  2) The MTII has switchable plug in power & it is turned off. I've scanned the manual though and I don't think the plug in power is switchable (although the phantom power is).

[sunjan]

I can only think of 2 possibilities:
  1) The plug in power is not working properly or there is some other problem with the 1/8 input. Send it back for service, or better yet return it if you can and buy a Tascam DR-07 instead. The Tascam is a much better choice than the MTII for someone who does not need phantom power or optical in.
  2) The MTII has switchable plug in power & it is turned off. I've scanned the manual though and I don't think the plug in power is switchable (although the phantom power is).

PIP shouldn't be in this equation, since the Sony mic relies on an external battery. It sounds to me that the preamp of the 1/8" input is shot. Like fmaderjr said, send it back to the shop for RMA.

AFAIU, the MTII uses two different preamp circuits, depending if you go mic-in over the 1/8 or the 1/4 input:
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/MicroTrackII.html
Just for the sake of troubleshooting, I'd follow jagraham's advice and check how much gain you need over 1/4 as a comparison.

[bonesinc]

Today I exchanged my MT2 for another one.

Unfortunately it behaves the same way so it looks like the MT2 doesn't like battery powered microphones in the 1/8" input. Or my battery powered microphones don't like the plugin power of the MT2.

Which I don't get because my old Sony MZ-R30 minidisc recorder (which has also plugin power) works fine with my microphones. And it's not possible to turn that plugin power off as well.

I made a temporary adapter to go from 1/8" to 2x 1/4" TRS and that works.
The supplied stereo T-microphone works ok in the 1/8" input but that one NEEDS plugin power.

Too bad that I can't use the cables that came with my microphones (the Sony ECM-MS957 has a XLR5 to 1/8" cable). Now I have to buy a rather expensive (and hard to get) XLR5 plug and some stereo microphone cable (also not very common) and some 1/4" TRS plugs. At least that way I can use that microphone as a balanced one.

My conclusion is that battery powered microphones don't work very well (if at all) with the 1/8" (plugin power) microphone input on the M-Audio MicroTrack II.

Thank you all for thinking with me.

Cheers,
Matthieu

[sunjan]

Too bad that I can't use the cables that came with my microphones (the Sony ECM-MS957 has a XLR5 to 1/8" cable). Now I have to buy a rather expensive (and hard to get) XLR5 plug and some stereo microphone cable (also not very common) and some 1/4" TRS plugs. At least that way I can use that microphone as a balanced one.

Good of you to troubleshoot! Sorry to say this, but the solution you suggest will accomplish little, a less-than-ideal rig at best for a lot of effort and money. 

Even after building a custom cable, you're still stuck with the sub-par AD stage of the MTII.

First of all, what's your intended usage with this rig?
If it's live music, there's no use holding on to the MS957. For stealthing, a single-point handheld is a nuisance. For open taping, a pair of mics offer much better versatility and stereo imaging.

If you want to keep the MS957, you have to give up on using the mic-in. I'd pick up an AD20 for semi-stealth instead.

Otherwise, I'd ebay the MS957 and use the ~EUR100 that you get as a downpayment for a pair of mics + pre. Feed the signal over the 1/4" line inputs, which are reasonably clean.
The Church combo has been ran with good reviews:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=106690.msg1686335#msg1686335

[bonesinc]

Thank you for your advice junjan.

The intended use of my rig is twofold: field use and open taping.

Originally I bought the Sony ECM-MS957 (second hand, ~$100) for field recording in combination with my MZ-R30.

Now I have become friends with a guy who started a small bar across the street. He wants to give small, beginning bands, who are tired of their practice rooms, a chance to play for a small, live audience in his bar. I got the idea to tape it, along with a video recording, to give it to the band so they can use it as a bit of promotional material.
The Sony MZ-R30 minidisc recorder is a nice little recording device but there are a few serious drawbacks; maximum 74 minutes recording and more importantly no way to adjust recording levels during recording. So, since the MT2 is being sold right now for a very nice price and it should be able to do what I want, it seemed like an obvious choice.

In short: I want to tape live bands in the bar across the street. I can setup microphones any way I want to. I just wanted to try all this with a very slim budget and guessed my MS957 might be usable to start with.

Mind you, it's all about voluntarily offering beginning bands a decent recording. No money is expected to be made. So I understand that the MT2 doesn't have the most sophisticated preamps but I just can't justify buying a preamp-A/D combo AND a couple of good mics right now, just for fun.
I might in the future, but right now I'm still trying to grow money on my back and it doesn't look promising. 

[taperwheeler]

Is that Sony mic considered a "dynamic" mic?  If so, read... http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=support.faq&ID=9a237a0b77a1865fb5f66e14d146b6c6

[bonesinc]

Is that Sony mic considered a "dynamic" mic?  If so, read... http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=support.faq&ID=9a237a0b77a1865fb5f66e14d146b6c6

No, it's not a dynamic microphone. It's a Mid-Side Stereo electret condenser microphone.
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&langId=-1&productId=11028618&storeId=10151#features

[unclelouie]

I assume that you checked the AA battery inside the mic to make sure it's got a good charge?

If yes, then I'm thinking that 5V of Plug-in power from the MTII is too much power for the MS-957 and that's where the problem is coming from.  If the MZ-R30 regulated a lower voltage PIP it could explain why your mic worked with that recorder and not this one.

IIRC, the MTII doesn't allow you to turn off PIP, so it might be wise to test out a new recorder. I agree that building a custom cable that terminates in 1/4" TRS isn't worth it.

Personally, I think the Sony M10 is a better recorder and will pair nicely with the 957. It will provide PIP if you need it and allow you to shut it off if you've got a self-powered mic.

[fmaderjr]

Personally, I think the Sony M10 is a better recorder and will pair nicely with the 957.

Definitely a better recorder, but then then 957 will be the weak link in your chain. When you can, relegate it to backup and get something like CA-14's and a battery box (or preamp). A hand held single point stereo mic is a pain to use even if it sounds good.

[sunjan]

I recently bought a MicroTrack II to replace my old Sony MZ-R30 MiniDisc recorder.
The 1/4" line level inputs work fine (with a customized cable) but I'm having a big problem with the 1/8" mic input.

Hey, I just got an idea!
I read a recent thread here on TS from a guy using his retired MD recorder as a mic preamp.
The recording function was faulty, so he just kept the unit as an analog pre, feeding the output signal from his headphone jack to the new recorder.

Your chain would be MS957 > MZ-R30 (passthrough) > MTII (line in)

That way, you won't have to rely on the built-in pre (which is crap anyway), and make use of the superior Sony preamp stage.

As mentioned in the other thread, the headphone jack will probably not give a perfect flat frequency response, but it's the best you can do given your existing equipment.

Try this and let us know how it works!

Since you're a friend with the venue, you have a great opportunity getting access to the soundboard. If you intend to keep the MTII, I'd hook it up with an UA-5, which would be perfect for matrixing a SB feed in the mix.
The next step would be to ebay the MS957/trade it for a nice set of open mics (there have been great bargains on the ADK A51s recently...)

[fmaderjr]

Hey, I just got an idea!
I read a recent thread here on TS from a guy using his retired MD recorder as a mic preamp.
The recording function was faulty, so he just kept the unit as an analog pre, feeding the output signal from his headphone jack to the new recorder.
Your chain would be MS957 > MZ-R30 (passthrough) > MTII (line in)

Sunjan-are you sure the MZ-R30 would pass through the signal without first converting it to MD quality?

I suggested to guysonic that I could use a Sharp MD to power his Sonic Studios mics (you don't need a battery box with the Sharp) and he said it would work, but he thought the signal would be converted to MD quality.

[sunjan]

Hey, I just got an idea!
I read a recent thread here on TS from a guy using his retired MD recorder as a mic preamp.
The recording function was faulty, so he just kept the unit as an analog pre, feeding the output signal from his headphone jack to the new recorder.
Your chain would be MS957 > MZ-R30 (passthrough) > MTII (line in)

Sunjan-are you sure the MZ-R30 would pass through the signal without first converting it to MD quality?

I suggested to guysonic that I could use a Sharp MD to power his Sonic Studios mics (you don't need a battery box with the Sharp) and he said it would work, but he thought the signal would be converted to MD quality.

Hmm, good point, there might be an ATRAC compression inbetween. But the OP has little to lose. As long as he wants to stick to his existing equipment, this is the best he can do.
At least he doesn't have to worry about flipping the disc!

On a more serious note, it would be worthwhile analyzing a WAV recorded this way. If the higher frequencies are missing, the analog signal has been ATRAC'ed!

[fmaderjr]

I had just started setting up such a test when I read your post.

The newest model MZ-RZ1 resamples, so the older ones surely do as well. I fed the MD one of my best live recordings and went line out into my MR10. I set the MD at Hi-LP to make it easier to tell. The files on the MR10 was badly deficient in high frequencies.

I agree with you, though, that SP minidisc sounds great so you could do what you say in a pinch. However the MZ-R30 is quite old and probably uses an old version of ATRAC which might not sound quite as good.

[bonesinc]

Well, I decided to return the MicroTrack II and bought a Sony PCM-M10 instead. 

So, the problem I had with self-powered microphones in the 1/8" 'plugin power' jack is no longer an issue. 

Thank you all for helping me solve this unsolvable problem and I hate you all for making me buy a more expensive device. 

No really, thanks! 

[andrea doria]

i read this older thread, think the m10 has brought a revival of the MS957 (?). found such a microphone nearly unused, came years years ago with a sony dat recorder. now i proved it and found it sounding best on sony machines. on all of them, dat, md and m10. has full sound and usable stereo picture, but not so with other 1/8" pip entrances (sounds thinner in middle and bassy in side regions). couldn't find how sony did it. the mic layout came from dat times (no more than 2v pip). one of the two membranes (not small, 1/2") is obviously an eight and works defining the stereo effect, other cardoid. microtrack runs 4,5v pip, not too bad on some pro lapels if there's no wireless connection,  holds good runtime with camera gear, has not so bad noise shaping like told in the web. but helas, preamps soundwise aren't better than all small user gear: all sounding like soup without bones.       

myself am using neumann, gefell, dpa, dyn md441 with pro mixers. yeah sometimes on small recorders too.  bad sound makes post cleaning extra work, endless lack of character. 

who has a MS957 on older or newer sony gear, try its a bit strange stereo concept, worth an playing adventure, turn it around: sounds fuller than inbuildt todays recorders mickly mics, has handsome 1/8" xlr5 stereo cable, not too much self noise for an electret .... and no problem with feeding 1/8" pip.

[wppcproductions]

I also use an ecm957.   It works great with my R-09HR.I had problems with distortion with the builtin  mic's on the recorder with close to stage loud music..I changed and I use full charged rechargeables at every gig that gets recorded.The only problem I have with the mike is the cheap threaded grip battery cover that goes over the battery.Mine got stripped and ruined the grip cover threads.I have to call Sony parts for a new grip cover.