Topic: Best Recorder for String Quartet

[Knight_Rupert]

Hi all,

I'm looking for a small recorder for recording my string quartet rehersals. I need something that will fit in my violin case, run on batteries, and record using internal mics.

Which recorder has the best sound, using the internal mics, for recording stringed instruments?

Price range $100-$400

Thanks!

[dean]

Lots of decent choices.  Many of the local jazz musicians in my area LOVE the Zoom H4 for the same purposes you describe.  I've found the recordings from that unit to be better than just a standard reference recording, though not quite up to "releaseable" standards.

[Knight_Rupert]

Thanks! How does that compare with the Sony PCM-M10? That is the one I've been looking at.

Also, do these recorders allow you to bypass the AGC? My camcorder uses AGC that I can't shut off.  Dynamics are very important to the music we play and I want to record them. For those interested we are working on the Beethoven Op.18 No. 5 and Shostakovich No. 8

Thanks again!

[rastasean]

the m10 may work but it is only omnidirectional so you may get too much of the room reverb in the recording.
The limiter and AGC can be shutoff on the m10 and full manual mode can be used.

[earmonger]

I think the PCM-10 would be good for this, though I haven't used a Zoom to compare. Reviews don't like the build quality of the Zoom as much, if that matters to you.
Guysonic, widely respected on this site, was not impressed with the unit in general, finding it noisy.

http://www.sonicstudios.com/zoomh4rv.htm

I wouldn't worry about omnidirectionals in a rehearsal room, if it's not hugely echoey to being with. Omni mics will basically pick up what your ears, also omni, pick up. (Directionals are favored by some people for concert taping because they lower audience noise.) Because the mics are so close to each other on the PCM-M10, you won't get a huge stereo image, but it should be fine for a rehearsal recording, and Ozpeter has posted a way to put more space into the recordings in post-processing.   Take a look at some of the posts on this page:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=130924.msg1737349#msg1737349

The PCM-M10 omnis start rolling off (lessening) the bass below 80 Hz; your cello's low C is 65.   I don't know about the frequency response of the H4 mics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies

Your recording is going to depend hugely on where you place the recorder. Each of the musicians hears his/her instrument in the foreground, obviously, and if the recorder is too near one of you, then you're not going to have an accurate idea of the blend.  It would be good to get an objective, knowledgeable listener in the room--i.e., not the violist's girlfriend--and have her choose where the blend is best. A few inches, literally, can make a lot of difference in what the mics pick up.  The PCM-M10 has a threaded hole for a tripod mount.

You'll get better performance with external mics: wider frequency response, more realistic stereo. But the PCM-M10 is a good start.

[aosone]

Omni mics are much easier to record with. Placement is not critical. I have a 2 channel Zoom and can't stand the interface. PCM-M10 is my go-to recorder when I don't want to carry the PCM-D1.

[earmonger]

You don't have to have omnis pointed directly at the sound source, as you do with cardioid (directional) mics. 

But placement in the room definitely makes a difference.  The mics can only pick up what they "hear"--and if part of the room is bass-y, or something is reflecting an extra bit of the violin sound, etc., the recording will do the same thing.

[WiFiJeff]

Omni mics are much easier to record with. Placement is not critical. I have a 2 channel Zoom and can't stand the interface. PCM-M10 is my go-to recorder when I don't want to carry the PCM-D1.

I noticed that the price of the D1 in the latest B&H catalog has come way down to the same as for a D50.  While the convenience of the D50 is better (size, battery life, memory capacity), the mics of the D1 are superior.  Worth considering.

Jeff

[expatCanuck]

Over the past few weeks, I've been evaluating recorders for song sketches (guitar / mando / vocals),
open mike recordings & harmony overdubs.  Sound fidelity was my primary criterion, moderated by price
(I really didn't want to spend more than $200, tho' I could have if I thought the performance delta justified the extra cost.)

Today, I opted for the Tascam DR-2D ($200 @ B&H).  After listening to various recordings available on the 'net,
I decided that, using the internal mics, the DR-2D was preferable to the PCM-M10 (also available for $200).
And that the DR-2D was good enough.

Were I planning to use external mikes, I might have decided otherwise.  But I just don't want that hassle.

The units are virtually the same size & weight. 

Yes, the battery life is marginal on the DR-2D. 
So I bought the power supply.

But I simply think that the DR-2D sounds better than the PCM-M10.

The Tascam's cordless remote was also a minor factor in it's favor -- the PCM's wired remote is just sooo 20th century.   

This may help you -- it's a spreadsheet that I started using to compare the units -- just add columns of criteria
that are important to you, and fill 'em in:

http://www.oldwithoutmoney.com/recorder.xls

Cheers,

 - Richard

[rastasean]

Have fun with the dr-2! I think the word 'hassle' is misplaced with external mics, but I think I understand what you mean and hopefully you'll get the desired results with the internal mics.

[jeffee]

I noticed that the price of the D1 in the latest B&H catalog has come way down to the same as for a D50.  While the convenience of the D50 is better (size, battery life, memory capacity), the mics of the D1 are superior.  Worth considering.

Jeff

I believe that is a misprint ..
-Jeff (Jeffee)

[aosone]

I believe that is a misprint ..
-Jeff (Jeffee)

It's $1569 this morning. Well worth it, imo, unless you need something smaller.

[dogmusic]

Have fun with the dr-2! I think the word 'hassle' is misplaced with external mics, but I think I understand what you mean and hopefully you'll get the desired results with the internal mics.

You can use the internal mics and the line in [with external mics and preamp] simultaneously on the DR-2d, and actually get two separate stereo files.

Might be good for a string quartet: a 4 track recording possibility.

[Knight_Rupert]

My head is dizzy with all the researching I've been doing. While the DR-2D does sound better than the M10 in the samples I've listened to, the short battery life is a deal breaker for me.

Any recommendations for a small stereo mic I could add to the M10 to improve sound quality if so desired?

Thanks!

[earmonger]

If you think recorder research is head-spinning, mics....
Anyway, post a budget range and you should get some good recommendations here.

Any recommendations for a small stereo mic I could add to the M10 to improve sound quality if so desired?

[flintstone]

Take a look at the Wingfield Audio web site for comparisons of recorders by a professional musician (cello).

Wingfield Audio's ranking of recorders (used with their internal mics):
outstanding: Sony PCM-D1
excellent:  Sony PCM-D50, Olympus LS-11
very good plus:  Marantz PMD-620 (review mentions the "sweet" sound quality)
very good:  Edirol R09HR, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4N

Stephanie Wingfield is available for consultation about your recording project. Give her a call.
http://www.wingfieldaudio.com/

[Knight_Rupert]

If you think recorder research is head-spinning, mics....
Anyway, post a budget range and you should get some good recommendations here.

Yes, mics, OMG the choices!

I'm starting to wonder if I might be better off stepping up to the PCM-D50. It sounds better with the internal mics than the M10, and it's still small enough to carry around with me. Since the D50 is about $200 more than the M10, is there a microphone I could get for that amount of money that would sound better then the D50's internal mics?

Thanks everyone!

[Knight_Rupert]

Ok, looks like I should consider the Olympus LS-11 as well. The cello sample on the Wingfield Audio website sounds good, though not quite as good as the D50. Does the Sony have any features that might be helpful for recording our quartet that are absent on the LS-11? Perhaps down the road if I want to upgrade further? I must admit the LS-11 looks more like a voice recorder to me.

Thanks!

[Knight_Rupert]

ahhh, I see the LS-11 has a wireless remote control available. That would be extremely useful! Maybe I underestimated this recorder?

[expatCanuck]

ahhh, I see the LS-11 has a wireless remote control available. That would be extremely useful! Maybe I underestimated this recorder?

The LS-11 is a very nice recorder.  Very good sound, wireless remote, outstanding battery life --
I'd suggest that its tragic flaw is the known bass roll-off (very nice cello recording notwithstanding). 
You can Google it & read up.

But if you're now considering external mics, I'd suggest that the Sony M10 is your better bet --
insanely great battery life, takes MicroSD cards (the D50 only takes the more costly
Sony memory sticks)  and, if you feel it's warranted, you can put the $$ difference
into external mics, which almost certainly will give you better sound (and more mic'ing
flexibility - perhaps important for a quartet?) than the D50, for about the same
(or possibly a lower) price. 

And a lighter overall package than the D50.

That's the route I'd have gone if

• I'd been considering external mics
• battery life was a concern
• I didn't want the overdubbing / dual source possibility

 - Richard

[Knight_Rupert]

But if you're now considering external mics, I'd suggest that the Sony M10 is your better bet --
insanely great battery life, takes MicroSD cards (the D50 only takes the more costly
Sony memory sticks)  and, if you feel it's warranted, you can put the $$ difference
into external mics, which almost certainly will give you better sound (and more mic'ing
flexibility - perhaps important for a quartet?) than the D50, for about the same
(or possibly a lower) price. 

Thanks! Can you recommend some external mics that would make the M10 sound better than the D50?

[rjp]

The LS-11 is a very nice recorder.  Very good sound, wireless remote, outstanding battery life --
I'd suggest that its tragic flaw is the known bass roll-off (very nice cello recording notwithstanding). 

I thought the LS-11 fixed the bass roll-off that afflicts the LS-10 internals and mic-in. I've seen a lot of conflicting information about that. Does anyone know for sure? In my experience, the LS-10 rolloff isn't a bad thing when I use my SP-TFB-2 mic set, but it makes the internals sound way too thin.

The LS-11 also has considerably longer battery life than the LS-10 (not that the LS-10's is bad), and 8 GB of internal memory instead of 2 GB.

Note that the wireless remote is a simple start/stop control, and doesn't control levels or menu functions. It has a small IR receiver that plugs into the LS-10 or 11, and can be oriented in different directions.

[expatCanuck]

Can you recommend some external mics that would make the M10 sound better than the D50?

I can't -- but I'll bet that many on this site can.

[expatCanuck]

I thought the LS-11 fixed the bass roll-off that afflicts the LS-10 internals and mic-in.

My understanding (all from site trolling -- none of it first-hand) is that the LS-11 lessened the roll-off, but didn't eliminate it.

[dean]

But if you're now considering external mics, I'd suggest that the Sony M10 is your better bet --
insanely great battery life, takes MicroSD cards (the D50 only takes the more costly
Sony memory sticks)  and, if you feel it's warranted, you can put the $$ difference
into external mics, which almost certainly will give you better sound (and more mic'ing
flexibility - perhaps important for a quartet?) than the D50, for about the same
(or possibly a lower) price. 

Thanks! Can you recommend some external mics that would make the M10 sound better than the D50?

Well sure, but . . .  That's what this whole site is about.  Encapsulating the information about microphones on this site into a single post just isn't possible, nor would it be at all useful. There's many, many options available to you depending on what you're looking to do and how much you're willing to spend, running anywhere from a couple hundred bucks to a good 10K. 

So if you're serious about externals, spend a few hours getting data from the microphone information available on this site.  Go to archive.org and listen to various mic/pre-amp set ups and see what sounds good to you.  Figure out how much you are going to spend, find the mics that interest you in that price range, then come back and ask specific questions about what you've not been able to figure out.

You're absolutely in the right place to do that.  There's entire threads here dedicated to particular mics, brands, pre-amps, cables, recorders, techniques . . . have fun!