Topic: Setting levels when wide dynamics expected

[powertenor]

Gutbucket,  thanks for the PM.  I tried to reply but it won't accept the code.  What's the real life advantage of the pre?
Is it for more headroom? Does it let you set the levels lower and boost later?  Why can't you do that with the R-09 mic in?

Where's the best place to pick up 4060s?

Thanks again.

Ian

[Gutbucket]

You can adjust levels either unit and you will want to set both correctly for lowest noise and enough headroom.  The MMA6k has detented gain pots, one for each channel, 2.5 dbs each click - where the R-09 has a single control for both channels with 1 db incremets.  Like the others here, I set the MMA to where I think the level going into the R-09 is in a good middle zone (level 12 or so) and then do the fine tuning on the R-09.  I use the same 'clap it out' method Moke mentions.  Sometimes I've had to adjust the levels lower to avoid clipping and I'll do that on the R-09 because it's a single stereo adjustment, doesn't make a click noise, and is easy to do while holding the unit in you hand looking at the meters. Like the others here I rarely need to adjust now if I know what to expect from a performance.  Once you record a few things you get to know the approximate settings you'll need.

Like I said, I haven't run the 4060's without the DPA pre so I'm not certain if the sound quality would be lacking without it.  I'd like to hear a good comparison of 4060>batt box>R-09 vs. 4060>MMA6k>R-09.  Eliminating the MMA6k would half the size of the rig which would be nice, but isn't a deal breaker for me.  The R-09 pre's aren't bad and you are running through them using either the line-in or the mic-in on the R-09 (only the available gain changes).  By using the DPA pre to make most of your gain you are using a better preamp that was specifically designed to work with those mics.  Consider that the preamp costs about the same as the entire R-09 (actually a little more). If you wanted to record really quiet stuff like ambient soundscapes, I'd definitely suggest the pre since you'd need all the quiet gain you can get.  You asked 'what is the best'.  Best is hard to say as taste differs, some value smallness differently than others, some need cardioids, etc.. but this is a tried and tested combination that gets high approval by many here.  Wipes the floor with the SP-TFB-2 in-ear mics strait into the R-09 (done it) but that's not a fair comparison.  Sorry I can't give you actual specifics.  Hope that helps.

[Carrera2]

Well, Friday was the next monthly installment of the recording of the orchestra.  As suggested early in the thread, I used the clap test a number of times and went in with my levels set.  Refrained from riding them, in spite of the temptation.  At the end of the first piece, it was rather clear that I was still set pretty low, so I nudged it up for the second piece.  Still low, nudged again for the Rimsky-Korsakov Sheherazade, the main event.

Nailed it.  I think I have some good settings now, maybe I will back off a notch or two.  Not once did the music peak, and of course, the clapping pegged the meter, but that's not a problem that the software hard limiter or some other technique cannot tame.

Thanks to all for the suggestions.  Next month I will go in with the same settings and believe that all will be well.  It's hard to be patient with trial and error.  But it's paying off!

Thanks again.


Follow-up edit:  This time I ran AT853-omni > ST-9100 > R-09 at 24/48.

[Shawn]

Well, Friday was the next monthly installment of the recording of the orchestra.  As suggested early in the thread, I used the clap test a number of times and went in with my levels set.  Refrained from riding them, in spite of the temptation.  At the end of the first piece, it was rather clear that I was still set pretty low, so I nudged it up for the second piece.  Still low, nudged again for the Rimsky-Korsakov Sheherazade, the main event.

Nailed it.  I think I have some good settings now, maybe I will back off a notch or two.  Not once did the music peak, and of course, the clapping pegged the meter, but that's not a problem that the the software hard limiter or some other technique cannot tame.

Thanks to all for the suggestions.  Next month I will go in with the same settings and believe that all will be well.  It's hard to be patient with trial and error.  But it's paying off!

Thanks again.


Follow-up edit:  This time I ran AT853-omni > ST-9100 > R-09 at 24/48.

It's all about knowing your gear, and it seems like you are getting there.

[libfab]

I've been through much of the stuff on recording classical music with an R-09 and so far I found little practical info as to optimal settings for stealth recording WITHOUT an external mic or preamp.
I did numerous tests and found the following, empirical results, which confirm the more scientific approach of this site's techies:

1. Very little interest in getting an external mic. The sony ECM-907 gives poorer results than the built-ins, whether at low or high mic-in settings. Other mics I've tried did little better noise-wise. Arguably the strategy only works with preamp or costly, cumbersome high-output mics.

2. Do record at 24-bit to boost post-editing efficiency and preserve a good wave shape for pianissimo playing. I know about the 16-bit v. 24-bit heated debate, yet to my ears, recording a solo violin at 24 DOES make a difference in pianissimos, even if you convert down to 16-bit for CD-building. No AGC, no low cut.

3. Noise-wise, avoid recording "high" as much as possible. For classical music, the following guidelines seem to work OK, provided the auditorium is average size, at around row 15-20 (I personally prefer first balcony, first row to get maximum reverb):

- solo acoustic guitar : you might have to get as high as "high" 25;
- string-only chamber music : "high" about 20 ;
- chamber music mith piano : "high" 15 to 20;
- all concertos : "low" 30 ; most jazz without saxo ;
- choral works, Beeth. 9th-style, or concertos with strong percussions ; jazz with strong saxo : as low as "low" 25 is OK.

The lower the setting, the lower the hiss after postediting. Empirical spectrum analysis shows "high" settings yield 10-20 000 Hz hiss noise at around -85/95 dB post editing, depending on your (conservative) hiss reduction techniques (see below). If the orchestra input is high enough to get down to "low", the same techniques will allow -110/120 dB hiss noise in the same spectral range. This said, recording too low gives poor violin pianissimos. So the settings above are a compromise.

4. Post-editing gives surprisingly good results, owing to the fairly regular hiss pattern of the R-09.

I got best results with a little bit of fine-tuning on Audition 2. Another simpler option is DC6.
For the newcomers in the hiss reduction business, the overall principle for fine-tuning a hiss filter is : take a pianissimo reference file of 10 sec, with slow violin (or flute) decay. Test the highest floor with strong hiss reduction level (at least -25dB) to rub off the noise below. Allow for some transition bandwith, to avoid abrupt cuts in the pianissimo tails.

For "low" recording at 30 and maximal orchestra input (Prokofiev's Nievski !) I did the following :

Normalize -0,5dB > Scientific filter (Remove under -28dB) > Noise reduction (automatic profile weighed by S curve between 20Hz (100%) and 200 Hz (0%), -30 dB setting) > Hiss reduction (automatic profile flattened for lows and lower mids, floor increased by +7-8dB w.r.t. to profile, -35dB reduction level yet with 10dB transition band, precision 20, special decay rate 80, high FFT settings )> Notch filters (7165 Hz and 14330 Hz need to be reduced by 12dB, super narrow ultra quiet)

5. Stereo separation: fairly disappointing with raw sound. I use a stereo expander filter (Audition 2. setting 200) in post. Great results, yet do this after hiss reduction, as this filter boosts hiss (and dynamics). You might have to compress (or normalize down) a little before doing it, to avoid clipping as a result of the dynamics boost.

Hope this will help all R-09 fans like me !

[Humbug]

Something that's not been asked - is it possible to open tape a classical concert? If not, what are the reasons behind this?

I have stealthed a trio (plus pianist for some parts) once, where a couple of family members were playing - levels were too low, so it's slightly hissy, but listenable. The organiser (and cellist) was thrilled to receive a copy.

Interesting thread.

Humbug

[WiFiJeff]

Something that's not been asked - is it possible to open tape a classical concert? If not, what are the reasons behind this?

I have stealthed a trio (plus pianist for some parts) once, where a couple of family members were playing - levels were too low, so it's slightly hissy, but listenable. The organiser (and cellist) was thrilled to receive a copy.

Interesting thread.

Humbug

I open tape a weekly chamber music series, the artists always give permission and love to get tapes, the hall has no union issues as it is not primarily a concert venue.  I love this, as I get to use real gear and do sound checks to set levels properly.  That said, I am officially the archivist, I'm not sure they would welcome the distraction of more than one setup.

Most major concert halls have unions that make it expensive to tape even when the artist wants a copy.  Hall rental costs can go up 50% just to allow the artist to have someone else tape.  And some artists don't want to be recorded. I can't imagine a classical venue tolerating a tapers' section, but it's fun to dream about it.  Also, for non-amplified classical music you need to be up close, the tapers' section would have to block out everyone else, which is not cool.

Jeff

[libfab]

WiFiJeff, you're right but I don't agree that for classical music you should be close. My experience is that the added value of live recording this type of music is natural room reverb. Electronic reverb applied to classical may be fine, but nothing beats a good auditorium. My point is: when you record too close, you may get lower hiss, but the sound is too crude (shrill highs, excess of bass) or badly balanced (too much strings, not enough winds etc.). Standing back gives you a richer sound, but comes at a cost: quite a few coughs and some post editing too.

[WiFiJeff]

This is a disagreement among non-tapers as well.  Some prefer to sit back further, some prefer right up front.  I've migrated to the front from experience, and I notice that people who try it like it, and usually don't go back to the "hall ambiance" areas (aka the cheap seats).  The migration is mostly one-way.  Anyway, I've taped from all areas, and the tapes I like best and that get the most positive comments on the sonics are pretty much without exception from the front.

Jeff

[SClassical]

This is a disagreement among non-tapers as well.  Some prefer to sit back further, some prefer right up front.  I've migrated to the front from experience, and I notice that people who try it like it, and usually don't go back to the "hall ambiance" areas (aka the cheap seats).  The migration is mostly one-way.  Anyway, I've taped from all areas, and the tapes I like best and that get the most positive comments on the sonics are pretty much without exception from the front.

Jeff

I used to sit at the back for another stealthing activity (that's the only place where you are safe to do it). But for recording audio I like to sit as close to the artist as possible especially recording solo or chamber. But for large orchestral stuff it is best to sit not too close because the balance of the instruments becomes too favored towards the instrument you are closest to. I recorded a few piano/violin concertos sitting right in front of the solo artist and the end results sounded a bit strange...I think you can guess how that sounded.

[libfab]

Yes Scyue, I agree with you about violins. Sitting back is often a good option for a violin concerto. Yet it depends on the quality of the auditorium a lot. In certain areas, natural room reverb somewhat makes up for the lesser sound pressure with the distance.
The mp3pro file attached is converted from a master taped in the best venue in Paris (salle Pleyel), first balcony. I took a risk but the result is stunning, to put it like Moke. Clear to me I would not get as much reverb sitting up front. (I simply used my R-09 without any external gear. Wide dynamics settings and post processing indicated above.)
It's Mendelssohn's, I hope you'll like it.