Topic: DSD users, notice anything different?

[carlbeck]

Stagger, you need to come back here & I will sit you down, when you leave you will have either drank the Kool Aid or not. Trust me, we are all hearing something even when dithered down to 24 bit. Between Nick, John & I we have some pretty decent systems for playback & we all notice it. I have no plans on selling my MR-1000 even though my FR-2 is fixed now, it sounds better & it is more than just a pre amp.

Listen to my RCMH & compare it to last year or the year before, besides the brightness (thanks to the Mix Pre) listen to the mids/bass & tell me there isn't more presence or dynamics, whatever you want to call it but don't tell me it isn't closer to the real thing. I was in similar spots for all three years, running Blumlein. I am not saying that they are not tonally different but what I am hearing is more of a lifelike presence on the DSD recordings. I made some damn fine 24 bit recordings IMO but DSD makes me feel like if I close my eyes I am there again better than any other medium I have recorded with does. Who knows maybe it's the AD stage but it does sound better & it doesn't matter whether you are listening to the MR-1 or 1000.

I agree with you though you would think 24 bit is 24 bit but something is up, I can't explain it but there is something different, it is more real. I would hope in the last 10 years of doing this if I have learned anything it is to trust my ears. I am not so blind as to be seduced by a new box & loving it just b/c I own it. Regardless of whether we want to call it noise shaping or DSD it is only available with one of these Korg recorders at the moment, when other manuf's come out with DSD we shall get the true answer then but in the meantime I will call it a DSD trait. Regardless it isn't an argument of what is better but just a fact of what I hear in my recordings.

[Stagger]

You know I've put my time in too and I think my setup doesn't hide too much from me...though I will admit it is ripe in the mids due to all tubes and silk dome tweets. But the one thing I have come to understand both from my own expierences and dealing with costomers that everyone can be influenced. I've busted myself on cable comparisons for instance.

That aside, I'm only going on the recordings that have been put up. I know it isn't the fault of the DSD but that RCMH show is tough for me to listen to for any period of time. I think my ears need another 8-10 years of pounding before I can ignore that HF stuff  . Just like Stereophile publishing measurments, we should look at the facts... in both a DSD>24bit recording and streight 24bit recording you have the same dynamic range, same frequency response, same word length. What else can it be but a specific noise shapping (subtractive rather than additive) that gives a different sound? I'm not saying the Korg unit doesn't sound better. I'm just saying that the method for comming to this conclusion is a bit flawed.

[carlbeck]

You know I've put my time in too and I think my setup doesn't hide too much from me...though I will admit it is ripe in the mids due to all tubes and silk dome tweets. But the one thing I have come to understand both from my own expierences and dealing with costomers that everyone can be influenced. I've busted myself on cable comparisons for instance.

That aside, I'm only going on the recordings that have been put up. I know it isn't the fault of the DSD but that RCMH show is tough for me to listen to for any period of time. I think my ears need another 8-10 years of pounding before I can ignore that HF stuff  . Just like Stereophile publishing measurments, we should look at the facts... in both a DSD>24bit recording and streight 24bit recording you have the same dynamic range, same frequency response, same word length. What else can it be but a specific noise shapping (subtractive rather than additive) that gives a different sound? I'm not saying the Korg unit doesn't sound better. I'm just saying that the method for comming to this conclusion is a bit flawed.

You just won't let me off the hook until I get a PSP-2 will you?? Nope, I agree with you to a certain point so we will leave it as rightfully respecting each others opinions but knowing I am right 

[Stagger]

Nah..I won't let you off the hook till my ears stop bleedin'

 

[it-goes-to-eleven]

in both a DSD>24bit recording and streight 24bit recording you have the same dynamic range, same frequency response, same word length. What else can it be but a specific noise shapping (subtractive rather than additive) that gives a different sound?

And in many cases those 24 bit A/D units support DSD.  They just don't output DSD due to the particular implementation. They quantize the raw A/D output to 24 bit, much as the mr1000 or audiogate do. I believe that is the case for the V3's a/d?

[scb]

Listen to my RCMH & compare it to last year or the year before, besides the brightness (thanks to the Mix Pre) listen to the mids/bass & tell me there isn't more presence or dynamics, whatever you want to call it but don't tell me it isn't closer to the real thing. I was in similar spots for all three years, running Blumlein.

do you have any comparisons that aren't from different shows?  like some rig split to a 24 bit recorder and to a dsd recorder?  i'd be interested in hearing a comparison that way. 

[carlbeck]

Listen to my RCMH & compare it to last year or the year before, besides the brightness (thanks to the Mix Pre) listen to the mids/bass & tell me there isn't more presence or dynamics, whatever you want to call it but don't tell me it isn't closer to the real thing. I was in similar spots for all three years, running Blumlein.

do you have any comparisons that aren't from different shows?  like some rig split to a 24 bit recorder and to a dsd recorder?  i'd be interested in hearing a comparison that way. 

Nope we haven't since both Nick & I have DSD. I would try when I get my Fostex back from Doug but it is modded. We need someone local with a 24 bit bucket.

[TNJazz]

Listen to my RCMH & compare it to last year or the year before, besides the brightness (thanks to the Mix Pre) listen to the mids/bass & tell me there isn't more presence or dynamics, whatever you want to call it but don't tell me it isn't closer to the real thing. I was in similar spots for all three years, running Blumlein.

do you have any comparisons that aren't from different shows?  like some rig split to a 24 bit recorder and to a dsd recorder?  i'd be interested in hearing a comparison that way. 

I will do one tomorrow night.

[Brian Skalinder]

I know it isn't the fault of the DSD but that RCMH show is tough for me to listen to for any period of time. I think my ears need another 8-10 years of pounding before I can ignore that HF stuff  .

< offtopic >

Even without having heard the RCMH recording, I know exactly what you mean.  Every C34 recording I've heard from PA environments - stage or audience - shares the same HF presence that just downright hurts my ears after a while.  I knew this going in when I bought Sanjay's C34 with re-built diaphragms, but thought I'd give it a whirl, anyway.  And the new diaphragms share the same HF characteristics.  I apply a mild LPF and it makes a BIG difference to my ears.  One of these days, I'll switch from the very coarse LPF to paragraphic EQ to make more precise adjustments.  I'm just learning paragraphic EQ, so it's going to take me a while to get it sorted, but I expect much better results than the LPF once I finally get there.  Kind of a PITA, frankly.  But...it's fun playing with the new-to-me mic and I'm enjoying toying around with the LPF and paragraphic EQ to get it sorted to my tastes.  If I didn't like the C34 so much - ease of setup / use, variable patterns, great overall detail and imaging - I'd unload this sucker.  If I can get some preset EQs sorted to make my life a bit easier, I'm gonna love this mic for a long time, I hope.

< /offtopic >

Is the RCMH C34 recording up anywhere for d/l?  I didn't catch the bt.etree torrent and would like to hear it.

Anyway...great reading feedback from a bunch of you using DSD, trying out the new technology / gear.  Thanks for all your posts!  I might get there some day, but it's gonna be a while.

[carlbeck]

Actually the real problem is that the Sound Devices only makes the HF worse in Blumlein (which is what I run 99% of the time) in Card or Sub Card it is much better but there is no denying in Blumlein the C34 just sounds bright. I am selling the SD because of this even though I really like the card & sub card recordings. I have been pleased with my previous rig (W Mod FR2) & the C34 running Blumlein but I am enjoying the DSD so now I need to find a pre-amp that will smooth out the highs. I am trying to find a PSP-2 or I will just buy a Portico 5012. I can't imagine having to EQ all my recordings but your right if you find a preset it would make life a lot easier.

Drop me a line & I can send a few discs your way. I am listening to my Raleigh 4/21 pull & loving it, one of the nicest recordings with the C34. I ran the Korg MR-1 & Apogee Mini MP pre.

[Stagger]

Why haven't I seen your Raleigh up for DL Carl? I've made pleanty of tapes that are anything but bright or hard to listen to with the c34 although I didn't run blumline all that much outside of local shows.

[carlbeck]

I forgot to seed it but is very good. I will have john seed it for me so keep an eye out.

[Stagger]

I only ask because Charles never put up his 24bit and my M/S sounds very odd. Lots of reverb off the concrete bowl in the mk8.

[dmccabe]

do you have any comparisons that aren't from different shows?  like some rig split to a 24 bit recorder and to a dsd recorder?  i'd be interested in hearing a comparison that way. 

Scott, I have 4 Allman Brothers/Ratdog shows done with KM184 > V3 > split so analog out goes to Korg DSD & digital out goes to Marantz PCM 24/96.
The analog out runs real hot when running normal levels for the V3 A/D, so the Korg input levels are between 1.5 and 2. We got some specs from Micheal Grace
for proper attentuators... the cables are still being made. Then we can run the Korg up in the 5-6 input range. Not sure if it will make a difference, the DSD files sound great now.


The DSD files then converted to 24/96 sound different than the Marantz 24/96. I prefer the "Korg Converted"
I can make you DVD so yuo can compare.

[carlbeck]

That is great too hear, plus T for taking the time to do a test of sorts with split signals. Honestly the results do not surprise me but it may provide some verification for those on the fence.