Topic: Tascam PR-10

[TomBoisseau]

I just purchased a Tascam PR-10.  My requirements were it needed to be REALLY small and able to record at 48k (I do alot of video work).

I'm fairly pleased.  It's pretty simple and easy to use, and very small.  It even has a built in speaker.  Of course, as you might imagine, the line input (even when set to "line") can not handle a true line level signal.  It looks like I'll need to build a -20 attenuator cable. 

2 AAA alkalines will run continuously recording for about 2:20.  Not so good, I know, however a set of lithiums will go about 10 hours.  You can also power the device with a USB cable to a computer or power supply.

So, admitably, it's not "great" but I think it's the best thing out there that's small and will record at 48k.  I would not want this to be my ONLY recorder, but it is convienent enough that I can almost always have it with me in my basic kit.  For other stuff where I have a "heads ups", I'll reach for my H4n or the PMD6611

Anyone have  a PR-10?  What do you think?

Tom

[sunjan]

Welcome, and thanks for taking the plunge to test new gear!

Paging faninor:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=139298.msg1835208#msg1835208

If there are issues going line in with a hot signal, I would assume it's the same for the other low end recorders in the PR/VR/DR series??? Did anyone else experience this?

[faninor]

Hi there. I think you're right, and depending on what you're doing you need to attenuate your signal. At first when I got these recorders I thought the specs on the inputs were the same as the larger DR-07 but it seems their line in isn't the same.

Unfortunately I haven't had much of a chance to use mine yet as I haven't been to shows lately.

On the larger DR-07 the max input level is +6 dBV (that's good for true line level right?), but on the smaller units (I just verified in the manual for PR-10 and DR-03) it is -3 dBV. Although my degree is in mathematics, I have to admit I don't know much about the electrical side of things. Is this enough info to determine how much attenuation is needed to bring a line level down to run safely into the tiny Tascam recorders?

If someone can help me figure out how much attenuation is needed, I'll pick up the right cable and run DPA 4060s > preamp or battery box > PR-10 at a show I'm going to with my wife next month... and will post the results. Perhaps I'll even use a Y-cable and run DPA 4060s > preamp > Y-splitter > PR-10 (attenuated) / DR-07 (unattenuated) for comparison's sake if that seems like a good idea.

[F.O.Bean]

So whats the deal w/ these They look SWEET if they have a decent ADC And for the price, its a no-brainer....

Anyone have a recording done w/ this w/ mics>pre>pr10

[faninor]

As soon as I try them out at a show I'll post samples. Don't think I'll be seeing anything until the end of March though.... but in the meantime I'll play around with them some more at home.

[fmaderjr]

2 AAA alkalines will run continuously recording for about 2:20.  Not so good, I know, however a set of lithiums will go about 10 hours. 

That would be completely unacceptable to me. IMO they should have made it slightly bigger and used AA's. Then it would probably go 3 times as long. I guess they did it because they knew that super small would be a selling point, but personally I don't need anything smaller than an M10. I just don't get why so many people want everything as small as humanly possible, but to each his own.

Even if lithiums would run 10-11 hours, I wouldn't want to be forced to go that route. They are fairly costly and you'd probably have to replace them way too early to be sure you didn't run out of juice at a critical moment.  As far as I know, no recorder's battery indicator is calibrated for lithiums. The battery meter will probably stay on full until just before the battery goes dead (giving you a warning of just minutes).

[faninor]

I don't know what number is more typical, but the first thing I did with mine when I got it was put in the included alkaline AAAs (a generic brand) and ran a continuous recording until the batteries died.

They lasted about 4 hours... not sure how the OP came up with 2:20, maybe tried with batteries that weren't good? Or maybe the batteries that came with mine were just extra special.

[TomBoisseau]

I don't know what number is more typical, but the first thing I did with mine when I got it was put in the included alkaline AAAs (a generic brand) and ran a continuous recording until the batteries died.

They lasted about 4 hours... not sure how the OP came up with 2:20, maybe tried with batteries that weren't good? Or maybe the batteries that came with mine were just extra special.

I failed to mention, my 2:20 was a continuous recording at 24bit / 48k.  It may be battery life varies depending on the bit or sample rate.  Maybe my batteries were not good (they were new, but not a name brand).  I would perfer you be right and I be wrong.

Tom

[faninor]

My test was at 24 bit / 48kHz as well. But until you have another go at it don't disregard your own results.

I think I'll be picking up some Eneloop rechargeable AAAs soon and will post my test results on battery life with them. Then I just need to pick up an attenuator pad or cable and I'll be all set to try this recorder out at a show.

[cosmickc]

Put a 8gig card in mine and it says there is only 3:20 remaining at 16/44k.  Which is not correct.  It recognizes the 8gig. I'm thinking it is only showing how long it can record one whole file before it reaches the maximum file size?

[Erick del Valle]

I don't have a pr10, but some recorders has the max file size set to 2Gig, and maybe that's the info that you have, you could record any file either 10 minutes and set you how much is the maximum time that said the recorder in recording standby

Saludos

Erick del Valle
Santiago de Chile

[faninor]

I just got Eneloop AAAs and a couple 4gb micro SD cards so I'm going to test my PR-10 out again today with the Eneloops on whatever charge they were shipped with and tomorrow will test them out on a fresh charge.

[Teen Age Riot]

Put a 8gig card in mine and it says there is only 3:20 remaining at 16/44k.  Which is not correct.  It recognizes the 8gig. I'm thinking it is only showing how long it can record one whole file before it reaches the maximum file size?

Must be a Tascam thing. My DR-2d behaves like that, too.

[newplanet7]

That is what you get for 2gigs at 16/44. So it does only show up to two gigs.
So for an eight gig you should have around 13hrs and 20 min.

[faninor]

Here's some helpful info!

Testing with:
1x Tascam PR-10
2x Eneloop AAA / HR03 800mAh
2x Kingston 4GB class 4 Micro SD cards

Batteries taken straight from the package (not a fresh charge!)

Procedure:
1. format card #1
2. record from ext. in (line in) at 24 bit / 48kHz until shortly before my lunch break
3. stop recording, turn off unit and swap cards
4. format card #2
5. record from ext. in (line in) at 24 bit / 48kHz until batteries die.


Results:

- Immediately upon powering on the unit, the power remaining showed 2 (out of 3 bars).
- Within 10 minutes of beginning it was wavering between 1 and 2 bars.
- Within 25 minutes of beginning it was down to 1 bar.
- The rec. time remaining will never show a number that corresponds to more than 2 GB of data
- If the card has sufficient capacity and free space, after 2GB it will automatically start recording to a new file
- I was able to verify that the file splits are seamless, as they are with the DR-07 and other Tascam recorders.

card 1
2:04:13 (1st file)
0:37:57   (2nd file)
card 2
0:35:42 (1st file)

Total record time:
3:17:52

Eneloops are supposed to hold their charge for long storage periods, but since the battery indicator dropped to 1 bar so quickly (and it was set to the Ni-MH setting) I expect it may run considerably longer on a more recent full charge.  I'm going to recharge the batteries tonight and try it out again tomorrow.

[faninor]

Testing the record time on a fresh charge now!

Got all 3 bars on the battery indicator when I started, 65 minutes later at 24bit / 48kHz it has just begun wavering between 2 and 3 bars.

If all goes well I will have a recording in a few weeks done with this rig:
DPA 4060 > DPA MPS6030 > cable > M-Audio 10dB pad > cable > Tascam PR-10

This rig is tiny... I just wish I could get a custom attenuator cable built to run between the MPS6030 and the PR-10. With the M-audio pad there are extra connections to worry about.

[faninor]

Battery Life Test:

1x Tascam PR-10
2x Eneloop AAA / HR03 800mAh (freshly charged overnight)
1x Kingston 4GB class 4 Micro SD card

Procedure:
1. power on PR-10
2. record at 28bit / 48kHz (stopping only to format card when more space is needed) until battery dies.

Results:

1st format (3 bars left on power indicator):
2:04:13
1:04:13 (getting close to lunch time so I stopped and reformatted the card with 1 hr exactly remaining instead of letting it run to the end)

2nd format (2 bars left on power indicator):
2:04:13
0:29:50

Total record time:
5:42:29



Battery Swapping Test:

I noticed when you connect to a computer via USB and power the unit on, you're prompted with an option either to connect to the PC or to power (to access files on the MicroSD) or to provide power to the PR-10 through the USB. This made me wonder if it would be possible to swap AAAs mid-recording using a USB battery pack.

Procedure:

1. power on PR-10 (from battery power)
2. begin recording at 28 bit / 48kHz
3. connect external power source via USB (in this case, my laptop)
4. open back of PR-10 and remove both AAAs
5. reinsert AAAs
6. disconnect external power source

Results:

The PR-10 continued recording uninterrupted throughout the process.


Therefore, if you are prepared with:
1x Tascam PR-10
1x 32 GB Micro SD card
12x Eneloop or similar AAAs
1x Energi-To-Go microUSB charger (or similar) to power the unit while swapping AAAs
Then it should be possible to create a continuous recording for approximately 32 hours at 24bit / 48kHz.

5 1/2 hours is plenty of time for me though.

[faninor]

DPA 4060 > DPA MPS6030 > M-Audio 10dB pad > Tascam PR-10



Once I'm sure the attenuation will be necessary I'd love to find someone who can build a custom attenuator cable terminated in the right connectors for going straight from the MPS6030 to the PR-10.

[F.O.Bean]

So, whats the consesus/status about how well the ADC is Is it comparable to an R09/R09HR/M10 If so, I'm def getting one. And for $100.00, how could one go wrong?

[faninor]

Is there an easy way to test or compare the ADC quality? I haven't been able to provide feedback since I haven't used the recorder at a show yet.

The best thing I can think to do with the equipment I have, is to use a y-splitter and record from the same source into both the PR-10 and another recorder (either a Tascam DR-07 or a Sony MZ-RH10 Hi-MD) but the y-splitter may degrade the signal on its own so I'm not sure how helpful that would be.

[sunjan]

You don't need the mics/bbox to test the ADC.
Just feed it with an aux signal from your CD player over an RCA>3.5mm stereo plug cable.
If you have another recorder, playback the same track and record it with the other unit.
You can then do an A/B/C comparison, including the source (rip it to WAV with EAC) and you could analyze the three wavs and perhaps put them side by side graphically and look at the spectrograms for noise.

[faninor]

Good idea. I had thought about and discarded that idea because I usually listen to music on my laptop (no high quality output) or on my desktop connected via optical spdif to Roland MA-15D monitors (but the only output is a 1/4" headphone jack and I don't have an appropriate adapter for getting that back down to 1/8" anyway). I should be able to use the DVD or blu-ray player from our media center and test with a CD though.

I'll see if I can test it out using a Nine Inch Nails track from Ghosts I-IV or The Slip. Since those albums were released under Creative Commons BY-NC-SA license it will be legal to share the files here for anyone who wants to actually hear the results.

[F.O.Bean]

thanks for doing some testing

[faninor]

I'm going to do two tests using each portable recorder that I have at home.

The first test will be valuable to me, but possibly not so valuable for anyone else. The source is a track from Nine Inch Nails' Ghosts III on CD. I have recorded it onto each portable recorder I have at home, and with the PR-10 and DR-03 I added the M-Audio 10db pad on the input since these recorders are too sensitive for the full signal. I just need to compare the results now.

Since the M-Audio pad is also a variable in this test, I won't be able to attribute performance differences to the recorders only (the pad may have some effect on the signal integrity so the recorders alone can't be blamed for anything). This test is valuable for my personal use because I would be attenuating loud sources with this M-Audio pad when using the PR-10 and DR-03 while I wouldn't need to attenuate the input with the other recorders.

For the second test the only variable will be the recorders and I won't use the attenuator pad at all. I'm going to put together a source DVD with 24 bit / 48kHz audio to test with, and I will use a recording that is quiet enough so that all of the test recorders can handle the unattenuated input. So this test should give some good info about the recorder's performance.

[aaronji]

Once I'm sure the attenuation will be necessary I'd love to find someone who can build a custom attenuator cable terminated in the right connectors for going straight from the MPS6030 to the PR-10.

Looks like, with 4060s, you'd be generating enough voltage to overload the PR-10 line input at around 125 dBSPL (and less than 100 dBSPL for mic/low).  Seems like the pad is a good idea for loud shows...Or a recorder that can take a hotter signal or a less sensitive mic.  4061s should be OK up to ~135dBSPL, I think...

[Teen Age Riot]

Once I'm sure the attenuation will be necessary I'd love to find someone who can build a custom attenuator cable terminated in the right connectors for going straight from the MPS6030 to the PR-10.

Looks like, with 4060s, you'd be generating enough voltage to overload the PR-10 line input at around 125 dBSPL (and less than 100 dBSPL for mic/low).  Seems like the pad is a good idea for loud shows...Or a recorder that can take a hotter signal or a less sensitive mic.  4061s should be OK up to ~135dBSPL, I think...

The pad seems like a good idea to me as well. I've had distortion problems with the 4060's, but I never found out whether I overloaded the mics themselves or the line-in of the Sony TCD-D100 I was using at the time.

Slight threadjack here: Has anyone else used the M-Audio inline pad? It does look small and convenient.

[faninor]

moon-pix:

I used the M-audio pad in a previous setup from 2007 to 2009 (Core Sound Binaurals > M-audio pad > Microtrack 24/96 1/8" input).

It was very convenient, but plugging it directly into an input jack on portable equipment would be a bit dangerous in stxxlth situations where the recorder might be in a pocket and might get bumped. It sticks out about an inch, and then the cable connecting to it sticks out even more and the whole thing acts as a lever. Too much sideways pressure and it would stress the input jack and cause some audible noise in my recordings with that setup. It's probably safer to do what you see in my photo. Other than that I never had any problems with it.

aaronji:

Thanks for the info! 4060s and 4061s have a max SPL before clipping of 134 and 144dB respectively, so if your figures are right then the 10dB pad is just enough to capture either microphones' full range without clipping.

[Teen Age Riot]

Thanks! I think I'll get one.

[aaronji]

Thanks for the info! 4060s and 4061s have a max SPL before clipping of 134 and 144dB respectively, so if your figures are right then the 10dB pad is just enough to capture either microphones' full range without clipping.

My pleasure...The numbers came from a table on the Sengpiel Audio site (http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-transferfactor.htm, about halfway down) using the specs listed by DPA and Tascam.  Might not be exact, but probably a pretty reasonable estimate...

[faninor]

I'm done comparing my recorders, you can read, see, and hear all about it here:

http://www.bringbackthesun.com/tascam_comparison/

It seems the PR-10 (and DR-03)'s inputs are noisier than the DR-07, but I'm pretty confident that it can make good recordings if equipped with an external preamp and an attenuator. I'm no expert so I suggest downloading the FLAC files from the page, listening, and making your own decision about these recorders.

I'll have a sample recording of a live show in a couple weeks, but I'll be using a simple power supply with my mics instead of an external preamp so I will only have my 10dB pad to control the signal going into the recorder.