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Author Topic: Tascam DR-05  (Read 29990 times)

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Offline UnknownVT

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Re: Tascam DR-05 - Low price and Rebate
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2014, 12:12:08 AM »
Hey, here's my first official tape with the DR-05 I ordered last week. Let me know what you think, I was very happy with the results! Recorded at max .wav settings:

Good stuff - glad you like the recorder.

I got mine too and here's a sample of a completely different genre of music - from today -


I included the DR-05 in the photo.

Download (4.55MB)

An advantage of these  recorders is it encourages taking out to record -
the quality is more than acceptable - in fact if care is taken in positioning and record levels - can be darned good
(again I will qualify that they may not compare directly with true pro live recordings -
but then how many here even with great equipment can claim that all the time?)

This DR-05 (as well as the DR-07MkII) has a Peak Reduction setting.

From the Review of the Tascam DR-40 by Jeff Towne
Quote
Peak reduction mode is a clever way of setting levels: you set your input gain manually, using the up-down rocker switch on the left side of the recorder, but if a loud sound that would overload the input is registered, the input gain is automatically turned down to a safe level. The input gain remains at that lower level. This mode will not raise the input gain automatically, it only reduces the level in response to incoming audio levels. It can be raised again manually if desired, but this is an easy way to set maximum levels without any of the artifacts of the Auto Level or the Limiter, which adjust the gain dynamically in response to the input, but can create an unpleasant pumping effect because the input gain is being automatically adjusted up and down.

Online aaronji

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Re: Tascam DR-05 - Low price and Rebate
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2014, 06:59:14 AM »
It is better than what bands are going to get from most audience recordings imo and it's of value to more than just me I'd say, including for networking shares for the bands I support. I can't afford the top quality recording gear yet, so while I'm aware the quality could be better, I think this is a good quality start to improve upon slowly as I get spare change to get bigger.

See my post above this for my first recording with a DR-05, I'd be curious to see what you think! I leveled a bit with sound forge.

I don't know about that; there are definitely a lot of crappy audience recordings out there, but there are some really fantastic ones as well.  To me, this recording is anemic in the low end, lacks detail and clarity, has muffled vocals and sounds kind of tinny in the highs.  Personally, I wouldn't spend much time listening to it.  I guess if it was a favorite band or performance, or if I was a collector, that might alter the calculus a bit.  At any rate, as I have mentioned, it depends on what you find listenable.

I think you can achieve notably better results without spending a fortune on gear, incidentally...

Also, you may want to consider tracking your recordings and converting them to a lower bit rate/sampling frequency if you want to provide samples for a thread like this.  It was a nearly 900 MB 24/96 file; it would have been nice to grab a song or two in smaller files...

An advantage of these  recorders is it encourages taking out to record -
the quality is more than acceptable - in fact if care is taken in positioning and record levels - can be darned good
(again I will qualify that they may not compare directly with true pro live recordings -
but then how many here even with great equipment can claim that all the time?)

All other things being equal (such as position), you'll get a better recording the (great) majority of the time with better mics...You're a photographer, right?  Do you use a cheap point-and-shoot or a fancy DSLR?  I bring a cheap one to shows and I find the photos to be good enough for me and my purposes.  I doubt you would find the same...

Offline psychwolf

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Re: Tascam DR-05 - Low price and Rebate
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2014, 09:02:18 AM »
I think you can achieve notably better results without spending a fortune on gear, incidentally...

What would you suggest to improve results?

Any recommended mics to the DR-40 and/or even the DR-05 for small clubs?

Offline earmonger

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Re: Tascam DR-05 - Low price and Rebate
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2014, 10:24:11 AM »
It's a clear recording but very midrange-heavy, where voice and lead guitar are. I find it kind of fatiguing because the voice and guitar are so in-your-face.

I couldn't find specs online for the mics, other than that they are omnis, but I suspect there is a steep bass roll-off around 100 Hz.

You might be able to restore some of it with SoundForge if the lows were picked up to begin with. I just don't hear much bass drum at all, so I don't know if it's rolled off or cut off.

This is why you're going to end up getting external mics and a battery box :)

Offline UnknownVT

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Re: Tascam DR-05 - Low price and Rebate
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2014, 11:22:26 AM »
All other things being equal (such as position), you'll get a better recording the (great) majority of the time with better mics...You're a photographer, right?  Do you use a cheap point-and-shoot or a fancy DSLR?  I bring a cheap one to shows and I find the photos to be good enough for me and my purposes.  I doubt you would find the same...
I would not disagree - that's why I had the qualification/disclaimer.

You do make a very valid point and used a very good analogy.

However, as with all things, that is a generality.

But there are two very important aspects to consider, please -

(1) Just because of ownership of professional equipment does not mean professional results -
that is definitely true for photography and I would think audio recordings as well.
As posters will attest most of the time position trumps equipment -
again with the caveat the equipment has to be adequate.

(2) The assumption point-and-shoots (and digital recorders internal mics) are inadequate and inevitably give inadequate results.
This is simply not true -
in terms of photography -
Most digital cameras including p&s are quite capable of publishable results
- it's the user and subject that makes the main difference.

Would one consider an album cover of a published CD adequate?

CD published by the Music Maker Relief Foundation
This shot was taken with a point-and-shoot -

2Mp Canon Digital ELPH S100

Web-sized photo of the original with EXIF metadata - so one can see it's not from some other camera -


OK that's a charitable foundation - and perhaps they'd use anything to be "charitable"?

Then how about an established weekly publication - Atlanta's Creative Loafing (link to photo)?
that shot was taken on a p&s -

Canon Powershot S80

again the web-sized photo of the original with EXIF metadata - so one can see it's not from some other camera -


I do realize you don't think much of the recordings in the thread I pointed to - so I can't argue with that -
 - but again I will reference -
please try listening honestly to the recording cd2go posted of Grace Potter & Nocturnals .

Getting back to point (1) about positioning - the advantage sometimes of these recorders with internal mics is that they can be positioned where full equipment cannot - especially at typical musical venues.
and we know position trumps equipment most of the time.....
again, please, I am not even daring to attempt to claim that these cheapo recorders can compare to true professional live location recordings -
but how many can truly claim that even with much more expensive gear?

Anyway - the point is one can be critical - but ought to be helpful too - with constructive criticism and ways to improve one's recordings - even with recorders and internal mics - that will give a good foundation for when one does invest in better equipment - point out specifically where the sonic shortcomings are, so a person can learn how to improve the recording with the gear they have and point out when better equipment has to be used to achieve the better results.

I am forever grateful to this forum for the very helpful and generous advice given in thread - Tascam/Teac VR-10 Digital Recorder

Online aaronji

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Re: Tascam DR-05 - Low price and Rebate
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2014, 11:55:32 AM »
What would you suggest to improve results?

Any recommended mics to the DR-40 and/or even the DR-05 for small clubs?

To the extent that you can manage it, I find that getting the mics closer and higher can really help.

As for mics, if you have both of those recorders, you have tons of options.  Depends a lot on your budget and the extent to which size is an important characteristic for you...

(1) Just because of ownership of professional equipment does not mean professional results -
that is definitely true for photography and I would think audio recordings as well.
As posters will attest most of the time position trumps equipment -
again with the caveat the equipment has to be adequate.

No doubt; I never said otherwise.  But, as I posted previously, "All other things being equal (such as position), you'll get a better recording the (great) majority of the time with better mics."

(2) The assumption point-and-shoots (and digital recorders internal mics) are inadequate and inevitably give inadequate results.
This is simply not true -
in terms of photography -
Most digital cameras including p&s are quite capable of publishable results
- it's the user and subject that makes the main difference.

Actually, I wasn't making that assumption at all.  I have even seen some beautiful photos taken with phones.  But a good camera in capable hands will usually yield better results than an iPhone.  Given the choice between a point-and-shoot and a DSLR, for an event you really want to capture, which would you choose?

Getting back to point (1) about positioning - the advantage sometimes of these recorders with internal mics is that they can be positioned where full equipment cannot - especially at typical musical venues.
and we know position trumps equipment most of the time.....
again, please, I am not even daring to attempt to claim that these cheapo recorders can compare to true professional live location recordings -
but how many can truly claim that even with much more expensive gear?

Where can you place a recorder that you couldn't place a pair of external mics?  Maybe there are a few situations, but not that many, at least not in the venues I go to.  You can build a very low profile rig these days...

P.S.  I don't think that Grace Potter recording is great either.  Way better recordings of her available.

Offline UnknownVT

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Re: Tascam DR-05 - Low price and Rebate
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2014, 12:54:44 PM »
(2) The assumption point-and-shoots (and digital recorders internal mics) are inadequate and inevitably give inadequate results.
This is simply not true -
in terms of photography -
Most digital cameras including p&s are quite capable of publishable results
- it's the user and subject that makes the main difference.

Actually, I wasn't making that assumption at all.  I have even seen some beautiful photos taken with phones.  But a good camera in capable hands will usually yield better results than an iPhone.  Given the choice between a point-and-shoot and a DSLR, for an event you really want to capture, which would you choose?
I am not being argumentative -
again I'would not disagree with you - as a generality -

Unfortunately you have just chosen the wrong person -
I DO actually choose a compact p&s style camera over my dSLR for the majority of my important shots -
I did the entire 2 days of the annual Chicken Raid (link to album) with

Canon PowerShot G15 (in fact both years 2013-4 were taken on the G15)

I do acknowledge the G15 is better than most p&s -
but I have deliberately chosen it over my dSLR (which is theoretically better technically) - because it does do better for my shooting situation.

I did a CD release gig (link) at a very, very dark venue just the other night (Sat Apr/12) entirely with the G15.


This latter album is very educational because the first part of the album from 2011 was from my dSLR at the time -
the venues are comparably dark (so dark that it is mostly below the both the metering and focusing limits of my dSLR).

In fact the majority of the shots in my web page (since Jan/2013 - are on the G15)
previous to that - and you probably don't want to hear this  :) ;) were on an $80 p&s the Canon PowerShot A1200

This shot was from that $80 camera -

EXIF metadata attached on this shot to confirm it is from the $80 Canon A1200

This is not about photography - sorry for being OT -
but I am trying to make a point that these recorders with internal mics can acquit themselves quite well -
that even more experienced tapers have commented give good recordings
(your disagreement not withstanding, but acknowledged)

Offline UnknownVT

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Re: Tascam DR-05 - Low price and Rebate
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2014, 01:18:41 PM »
Often with live recordings you don't have the choice of placement, so instead you have to choose your tools.  Low-end digital point & shoots generally don't have good telephoto performance, or might have distortion at very wide angles, for example.  With sound, if you have to be far from your source and you also have to use directional microphones, you'll have limited low frequency response with the smaller and less expensive built-in mics.  If you could put that same unit on the stage or very close to it, you might get a nice recording.

In your cafe picture I'd avoid placing the recorder directly on a table because you'll get interference from reflections off of that surface.  That will cause peaks and nulls in frequency response.  Get close and up if you can.

Thank you very much for the advice - much appreciated.

From what you are saying the recorders with internal mics can give acceptable results - as long as care is taken with positioning -
(again full acknowledgement that all things being equal better equipment will give better results)

But one of the points I tried to make is that a compact recorder can be placed where fuller equipment might not be able to -
and thank you regarding the advice regarding reflections off the table -
do you actually hear it, if so can you please point out where so I can learn to listen for it, please?

I was in a neophyte way aware of that - considering the casual and unattended nature of my recording (secondary to my photos)
I did place the recorder on a folded sock/homemade carrier bag to try to minimize that.

Thank you for the constructive input.


Offline UnknownVT

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Re: Tascam DR-05 - Low price and Rebate
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2014, 02:55:45 PM »
I haven't listened to the track, I only need to know what happens to sound when you get reflections off of a surface, which is almost always bad.  Experiment at home with a repeatable source (your stereo will work fine) and various mic placements.

Placing a mic very near a surface can be beneficial in some circumstances though--try it and see.  But if you can't be right on a surface, you want to get as far away from the surface as you can.

Thank you, thank you - yes, I have actually done just that in reply #12 above - using 3 very different CD recordings.

Just so to put things into context and show I am not a complete idiot and being merely argumentative here -
I call myself a neophyte here compared to the many serious tapers (whom I have enormous respect).
I do recording with mere digi-recorders with internal mics – because they are really for my own use – a souvenir if you like – they have to be by nature casual and unattended because I am there primarily to take photos.

Excuses over – I have found these digi-recorders do make what sound like pretty adequate recordings – I now have 4 recorders (Teac VR-10 cost me less than $30, Tascam DR-07MkII bought as my more “serious” recorder ( I got it for <$70), the DR-03 and now the DR-05 both circa $40).

Now full disclaimer - I do not for one moment even dare suggest that these are even comparable to professional live location recordings.

But I think they do pretty well – not merely for what they are.

My creds -

I have long been a music fan – doing photography for many many years and some time ago casual live recordings.

I was enthusiastic enough to have done my research and built my own microphones - out of the then very well regarded Panasonic capsules – recording first with a Sony DAT TCD-D7 DAT recorder, then various Sony MiniDiscs.

I actually published instructions on my build – that Tidmarsh (my posting contemporary) has on his web page - Binaural Microphone Construction (link) - I see that has been referred to here on TapersSection- I am the Vincent he refers to.

I have found my original post when my e-mail was on psilink.com (long defunct) -
DAT-Heads Digest #864 EDIT to ADD - this link no longer works as SolOrb.com as dropped its DAT Heads Archive

The page can still be found with the Internet Archive Way Back Machine -

https://web.archive.org/web/20070504223320/http://solorb.com/dat-heads/digests/V1.800/D864

header -
From: VT <p00061@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Follow up - Stealth mics for Sony DAT TCD-D7
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 94 16:15:13 -0500

That's 20 years ago to the week!!!!

Just in case anyone has doubts about the veracity of this and I just managed to find a coincidental same name -
here's a recent shot of that set up with my original Sony D7 DAT recorder – (bit expensive to buy just to fake a point)



The point is I do trust my ears -
but I am also here to learn.

Thanks,

Online aaronji

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Re: Tascam DR-05 - Low price and Rebate
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2014, 03:12:29 PM »
Unfortunately you have just chosen the wrong person -
I DO actually choose a compact p&s style camera over my dSLR for the majority of my important shots -
I did the entire 2 days of the annual Chicken Raid (link to album) with Canon PowerShot G15 (in fact both years 2013-4 were taken on the G15)
I do acknowledge the G15 is better than most p&s -
but I have deliberately chosen it over my dSLR (which is theoretically better technically) - because it does do better for my shooting situation.

That's not really what I meant by "cheap point-and-shoot".  I was taking two extremes ("cheap point-and-shoot or a fancy DSLR") for the sake of the analogy, but I also at least implied that there were options in the middle ("I think you can achieve notably better results without spending a fortune on gear, incidentally...").  That camera is going for around $400.  For that amount of money, you can get a pretty good recording set-up together, such as an R05 ($200) with CA11s or CA14s (either model, with both omnis and cardioids) and a CA battery box (the whole CA package is $200).  Or a cheaper recorder, some AT853s ($200) and a battery box (~ $40).  With some willingness to buy used or shop around a bit, you could probably even stretch that $400 to include some of the accessories that you would need.  Those options will generally allow you to make better recordings than the DR-05, in my opinion...

But, as I have mentioned several times, whatever you like is the set-up you should use.  They are your recordings after all! 

Offline UnknownVT

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Re: Tascam DR-05 - Low price and Rebate
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2014, 03:23:43 PM »
That's not really what I meant by "cheap point-and-shoot".  I was taking two extremes ("cheap point-and-shoot or a fancy DSLR") for the sake of the analogy, but I also at least implied that there were options in the middle ("I think you can achieve notably better results without spending a fortune on gear, incidentally...").  That camera is going for around $400.  For that amount of money, you can get a pretty good recording set-up together, such as an R05 ($200) with CA11s or CA14s (either model, with both omnis and cardioids) and a CA battery box (the whole CA package is $200).  Or a cheaper recorder, some AT853s ($200) and a battery box (~ $40).  With some willingness to buy used or shop around a bit, you could probably even stretch that $400 to include some of the accessories that you would need.  Those options will generally allow you to make better recordings than the DR-05, in my opinion...

But, as I have mentioned several times, whatever you like is the set-up you should use.  They are your recordings after all!

You know, I don't think we were ever really in disagreement -
all I was trying to say was compact digi-recorders can make acceptable/adequate recording that satisfy many -
of course all things being equal better equipment can make better recordings.

I have shot on cheaper p&s including the $80 one shown in my post above yours, and I did deliberately choose to use it over my dSLR in most smaller clubs, because it does actually do better.

For my usage a compact digi-recorder off its internal mics is all I can really ever use since I cannot be attentive and the recordings are casual - but they have turned out to be surprisingly good - much better than I ever expected - as I said in the post above yours I have been doing this for well over 20 years - including building my own mics.

I realize it is not apples to apples but these cheapo recorders seem to do better to my ears than the home-built mics with my olde DAT recorder and/or MiniDisc - and I thought those were pretty good at the time.

Like I said I am not even disagreeing with you only to point out that compact digi-recorders can make pretty "good" recordings.

Online aaronji

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Re: Tascam DR-05 - Low price and Rebate
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2014, 05:00:22 PM »
^^^  As I mentioned before, I really think it all depends on what your expectations are for a given recording situation and whether or not your set-up can deliver to those expectations on a fairly consistent basis.  I tried a compact recorder with internals a few times and thought the results were pretty good.  The first time I tried external mics, though, there was a very substantial improvement.  As I refined my set-up to reflect my specific recording goals (and typical environments), there were further improvements.  And there will be more in the future!

In the end, for me (and I think for most of us) it's a hobby.  If my recordings satisfy me, that's what matters...

Offline earmonger

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Re: Tascam DR-05 - Low price and Rebate
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2014, 06:36:01 PM »
This thread is getting a little tangled--never happens on TS, right? :)

My response was to psychwolf's psych fest recordings--better mics would help. I haven't listed to UnknownVT's recordings.

As noted above by others, Church Audio CA-14 or what Chris Church now says are his best omnis, the CA-11 MK II, should blow away the internals on the Tascam. I've got the CA-14 omnis and a 9V battery box and they are superb. If the CA-11 are better...well, too bad this year's tax refund was already spoken for.

Psychwolf, your external mic choice, along with budget,  is between cardioids--directional mics--and omnis, omnidirectional mics. If you are generally in as good as spot as you were for the Tascam recordings, then omnis would suit you. Cardioids are for tuning out audience noise and room reverb, and you didn't seem to be suffering much from either one in your recording. The DR-05 mics are omnis. 

I've stated before that I'm not a big cardioids fan, though I have never used any higher-end cardioids. To me they have a cramped, "backless" sound while omnis are more immersive.

But if you are in a situation where you're far away from the sound source, and people are chatting away all around you, cardioids would be the way to go. Or you can get both in a set from Church Audio and bring along whatever would suit that particular concert.

Or if you want a starter pair of omnis for about $70, get these with the clips (and none of the other extras). Also get a 9V or 12V battery box to record through Line-in.
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-BMC-2

Offline UnknownVT

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Re: Tascam DR-05 - Low price and Rebate
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2014, 07:11:21 PM »
^^^  As I mentioned before, I really think it all depends on what your expectations are for a given recording situation and whether or not your set-up can deliver to those expectations on a fairly consistent basis.  I tried a compact recorder with internals a few times and thought the results were pretty good.  The first time I tried external mics, though, there was a very substantial improvement.  As I refined my set-up to reflect my specific recording goals (and typical environments), there were further improvements.  And there will be more in the future!

In the end, for me (and I think for most of us) it's a hobby.  If my recordings satisfy me, that's what matters...

If you already have made your own omni binaurals you can use them as required.  They will useful in many situations where the built-in directionals are not, and vice versa.  Again, like having both a 28mm and 85mm lens.

Once again thank you gentlemen - appreciate the input.

Let me reiterate once more - no, I don't think these compact recorders are the "bestest" -
but they do acquit themselves quite well -
to my ears anyway, and certainly I don't find the recordings anywhere near unacceptable -
in fact I am quite impressed with some - enough to post here and open to critique.

I don't disagree people were probably kind, and want to encourage me - so I have accept that might be the case -
but there was no need to heap the praise though.

Again I recognize I might not be experienced enough with my own recording to recognize the shortcomings -
that why I do post and want to hear the possible problems I might not be hearing.....

FWIW - I did some more controlled recordings with all 4 of my recorders from CD on my HiFi system -

excerpt from Pulo do gato by Badi Assad (jazz acoustic guitar) with very wide dynamics off a well recorded CD on Chesky - they claim 128x over-sampling.....

Recorder A Download (2.32MB)
Recorder B Download (2.42MB)
Recorder C Download (2.31MB)
Recorder D Download (2.31MB)

Offline psychwolf

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Re: Tascam DR-05 - Low price and Rebate
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2014, 10:29:43 PM »
It's a clear recording but very midrange-heavy, where voice and lead guitar are. I find it kind of fatiguing because the voice and guitar are so in-your-face.

I couldn't find specs online for the mics, other than that they are omnis, but I suspect there is a steep bass roll-off around 100 Hz.

You might be able to restore some of it with SoundForge if the lows were picked up to begin with. I just don't hear much bass drum at all, so I don't know if it's rolled off or cut off.

This is why you're going to end up getting external mics and a battery box :)

You have a good ear. I actually used soundforge to first raise the entire volume up by at least 300% so that was my first problem -- low levels. Then I cut the bass with the equalizer so I could bring out the guitar more and attempt to take the vocals out of the background, but still didn't really achieve the intent with the vocals. I found the bass guitar started to distort everything a little (but not the bass drum), so I removed that low but maybe I pulled the bass drum with it a bit.

 

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