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Author Topic: Zoom F8  (Read 124845 times)

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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Zoom F8
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2015, 11:08:59 PM »
I'm probably gonna sell my 722 , perhaps my zoom h6 as well. This looks to be the right size for my gear bag, seeing as I run 8 mics right now. We'll see how I like the sound compared to the sd.

Before selling your 722, a head to head recording comparison would be +

I sort of wish Zoom had also used Sony type L batteries instead of AAs.  The runtime on all 8 channels with phantom as I recall is about an hour.

The outside of the F8 with the aluminum case looks like Zoom has stepped it up, but the question will be if the internals are comparable to SD. 

Offline pohaku

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Re: Zoom F8
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2015, 12:00:37 AM »
No question the features, as described, are really nice, as is the price.  The big question still remains though -- what does it sound like?  Until we can get that answered to our satisfaction, the true attractiveness of this unit remains speculative. I am certainly looking forward to seeing some comparative reviews and listening to some pulls. If it sounds at least as good as the DR70, it will be a no-brainer.  A great time to be a taper! ;D
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Offline Whatisvalis

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Re: Zoom F8
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2015, 09:23:08 AM »
Really looking forward to hearing some feedback on this, especially versus the SD.

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Re: Zoom F8
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2015, 09:59:14 AM »
The rudimentary description of the wifi function says the following...

Functions include Record, Play, Stop, Fast-Forward, and Rewind, plus mixer pan and fader level.  You can also monitor input levels, current time code, and battery status. With Zoom F8 Control, you can rename files, enter metadata, and set date/time information directly from your iOS device.

Even though the gain controls on the front are limited rotation knobs and appear to be analog level control gain pots, clearly all of the mixer functionality of this recorder is digital and software driven from the front touchpad.  [snip]

Nothing there directly indicates the ability to remotely change individual channel preamp input gain (trim/level), only monitor them.  It sounds to me like just the level/pan mix of the 8 channels down to the 2-ch bus can be remotely manipulated.

I think I recall "channel gain ganging" was added as a feature to the R88 via later firmware update.  I wonder how that works with its gain controls, which seem identical to those on the R44.

The R44 doesn't have a mixer for user definable output routing, does it?[/quote]

No, but the R88 does.  I was just noting that the R88's co-axial input-level/sensitivity pots are identical to those on the R44 - standard non-motorized, non "infinite-turn" rotary encoder pots.  Point being that once channels are ganged and adjusted, the position markings and rotation range of the physical knobs will no longer correspond with the actual input level/sensitivity settings.

Just checked and a firmware update did add channel ganging for the R88.   The update note says this: "To adjust the linked input level or sensitivity, use the knob of the first channel in the group."  So presumably, when ganged the physical knobs on the face of the unit controlling all members of the group except the first channel in it are deactivated.  Without trying it out or digging further I'm unsure how that works when the level/sensitivity is set differently for each channel in the group and one channel gets to the end of it's range before the others while the entire group is being adjusted using the one physical knob.  Presumably, like the DR-680 it limits the available range of adjustment to whatever the common overlap range is between all channels the group.  In other words, if you were to start with one channel's level fully up and another fully down, then link them, turning the knob would do nothing as there would be no available "common range" between those the two extreme settings.

That scheme could also be applied to the F8 if it isn't already.  The user would just need to learn to ignore the position indicators of the physical input level knobs of the rest of the channels in the group. 

But more ideal would be having endless rotary encoder pots for each channel. Then the user could turn the knob of any channel in the group to adjust the entire group, with no erroneous position indicators for any channel.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 10:01:31 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline 404 Not Found

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Re: Zoom F8
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2015, 10:44:15 AM »
I'm probably gonna sell my 722 , perhaps my zoom h6 as well. This looks to be the right size for my gear bag, seeing as I run 8 mics right now. We'll see how I like the sound compared to the sd.

Most likely will do the same with my ZoomH6 and sell it.  F8 notes that it has upgraded the pre's from the H6, so I am assuming this is a step up in that direction.  I can not compare to the SD722, although I will keep my SD552 & SDMixPre-D.
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stevetoney

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Re: Zoom F8
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2015, 11:02:47 AM »
Just checked and a firmware update did add channel ganging for the R88.   

I can't imagine that this Zoom wouldn't have similar functionality, either now or through a firmware update.  My earlier comment was only to show that there's significant functionality of the unit at the firmware/software stages...the ganging function doesn't need to be designed into the unit via hardware controls.  Your comments indicates that's the case for the R88.  The point is that, though there are delimited knobs on the front I don't think that should lead to any assumption that the channels cannot be linked. 

But more ideal would be having endless rotary encoder pots for each channel. Then the user could turn the knob of any channel in the group to adjust the entire group, with no erroneous position indicators for any channel.

FWIW, with eight separate gain knobs I much prefer the delimited gain knobs on the front panel to eight infinite digital knobs since it provides a visual indication of the relative settings between channels.  Yeah, with a design like the DR680 where a single knob is used to adjust gain for all channels, the infinite knob is the only logical choice, but on recorder designs where there's one knob per channel, I think most if not all of them use delimited gain controls.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 11:06:02 AM by tonedeaf »

Offline acidjack

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Re: Zoom F8
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2015, 11:10:03 AM »
Any manufacturer can make a cheap recorder with a bunch of "features." Unless you don't care about what you're doing, the only thing that really matters is quality control and reliability. I'm not suggesting that the Zoom doesn't have that -- I've never used it -- but I'm amused at the bandwagon-jumping that accompanies almost every new recorder release by almost every manufacturer. There's a reason why the M10 and SD units (in particular) pop up over and over again among the people who are actually out recording the most, while lots of other things don't similarly stand the test of time.

If a manufacturer is matching the feature set of something else that costs 2-5X as much, it causes me to at least question what corners they cut to attain that price point. But who knows, recorder prices do fall, and sometimes you get lucky. Just my $0.02.
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Offline 2manyrocks

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Re: Zoom F8
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2015, 11:32:52 AM »
The community would be better served by buying one unit for a panel of experienced tapers to test, getting their assessment, and then everybody can decide if they really want one.  That probably makes better financial sense than 20 people spending $1,000, half of those deciding to resell later at a loss.  Or be up front with a dealer and say we're going to test the stew out of this thing for 30 days.  Put it up against a Sound Devices and do a comp against a checklist of what we want (accurate meters, good preamps, run time, etc)

My problem with some of the reviews on the dealer websites is some appeared to me to be cooked because there were known issues with a particular recorder, and yet these guys were posting 5 stars with no mention of the known issues.  And then there are the guys who really don't have the experience to really evaluate a unit against the other options.

And then there's the fact of life that some drawbacks aren't immediately apparent and take several months for people to start saying, hey, I really don't like A, B or C about this. 

Offline MakersMarc

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Re: Zoom F8
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2015, 11:34:27 AM »
No question the features, as described, are really nice, as is the price.  The big question still remains though -- what does it sound like?  Until we can get that answered to our satisfaction, the true attractiveness of this unit remains speculative. I am certainly looking forward to seeing some comparative reviews and listening to some pulls. If it sounds at least as good as the DR70, it will be a no-brainer.  A great time to be a taper! ;D

Yeah, to me, despite a few shortcomings, this is a hell of a bargain if it sounds in the ballpark of a 7xx, good solid fairly transparent sound, a one box without too much compromise. Zoom has yet to prove it can deliver. I didn't wait on picking up another 661 because I wanted a backup and want to run two rigs at times, and wasn't willing to jump on this because of the noise issues of zoom products.
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Offline carlbeck

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Re: Zoom F8
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2015, 11:42:15 AM »
For myself I don't care about the preamps since I run external ones & how the ADC sounds is difficult to determine so I'm more concerned about functionality & more important, reliability. This is a pretty exciting product in my opinion if it's reliable, I can work around the rest.
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Re: Zoom F8
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2015, 12:07:16 PM »
If a manufacturer is matching the feature set of something else that costs 2-5X as much, it causes me to at least question what corners they cut to attain that price point. But who knows, recorder prices do fall, and sometimes you get lucky. Just my $0.02.

Generally speaking, I think our community proves out that you get what you pay for.  If someone ever expected SD quality and performance when they bought a DR680, then you're simply being unrealistic. 

To a degree, costs can be cut without sacrificing out-of-box product quality, such as by off-shoring design and manufacturing labor and decreasing the warranty terms.  For example, I know for a fact that in my industry VERY high quality engineering labor is available from contracting companies in India for around 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of US based design engineering labor.   I'm not sure how much of the Sound Devices products are US based...probably a fair percentage from design through manufacture.

But, yes the quality of materials would be something I'd look into on this unit.  At $1000, it's not a minimal investment item, but then again you don't have to use it much to get your moneys worth.

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Re: Zoom F8
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2015, 01:06:06 PM »

If a manufacturer is matching the feature set of something else that costs 2-5X as much, it causes me to at least question what corners they cut to attain that price point. But who knows, recorder prices do fall, and sometimes you get lucky. Just my $0.02.

There's also the repair and support side to consider.   If you buy a more expensive recorder, you'll get perks such as the manufacturer priority shipping you a replacement unit as soon as you send yours in for repair, 24 hour phone support, or the dealer getting a good enough profit margin that they will cushion you with loaners and quick turn around in the event of a problem.    Those are the corners that don't even exist in the budget category of recorders.

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Re: Zoom F8
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2015, 01:11:53 PM »
I'm probably gonna sell my 722 , perhaps my zoom h6 as well. This looks to be the right size for my gear bag, seeing as I run 8 mics right now. We'll see how I like the sound compared to the sd.

Before selling your 722, a head to head recording comparison would be +

I sort of wish Zoom had also used Sony type L batteries instead of AAs.  The runtime on all 8 channels with phantom as I recall is about an hour.

The outside of the F8 with the aluminum case looks like Zoom has stepped it up, but the question will be if the internals are comparable to SD.
I would definitely wait until a comparison
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Re: Zoom F8
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2015, 01:16:41 PM »
I can't imagine that this Zoom wouldn't have similar functionality, either now or through a firmware update.  My earlier comment was only to show that there's significant functionality of the unit at the firmware/software stages...the ganging function doesn't need to be designed into the unit via hardware controls.  Your comments indicates that's the case for the R88.  The point is that, though there are delimited knobs on the front I don't think that should lead to any assumption that the channels cannot be linked.

I'm just addressing the actual reported functionality for the F8, not speculating on what's possible.  I've wondered how channel ganging could be implemented with standard rotation-limited delimited pots and only this morning looked it up to figure out how Roland added that feature to the R88.   The R88 was not initially designed this way, and it's rather obvious to me that the addition of the feature is a "catch-up" to the Tascam channel ganging function.  The Roland approach as I described above works, and is relevant because it could be applied to the F8 (may already be, but I doubt it as it's not mentioned anywhere a feature).

But more ideal would be having endless rotary encoder pots for each channel. Then the user could turn the knob of any channel in the group to adjust the entire group, with no erroneous position indicators for any channel.

FWIW, with eight separate gain knobs I much prefer the delimited gain knobs on the front panel to eight infinite digital knobs since it provides a visual indication of the relative settings between channels.  Yeah, with a design like the DR680 where a single knob is used to adjust gain for all channels, the infinite knob is the only logical choice, but on recorder designs where there's one knob per channel, I think most if not all of them use delimited gain controls.[/quote]

Yes, they do, and therein lies the problem.  If adjusting the input level of each channel independently, sure, the visual indication of the knob makes their positions obvious.  But once ganged, the visual indication of all the the knobs in the group except the first will be lying to you.. (and I assume they will be deactivated). In my opinion that is far from ideal.  I'd much rather have any knob in the group adjust level for the entire group rather than a bunch of non-fucntioning knobs, and I'd much rather have no physical position indication on each knob rather than misleading position indications, effectively lying to me.  The addition of LEDs around the knobs (or expensive motorized pots) solves the position indication problem, but adds considerable expense.

Channel ganging and rotation-limited delimited (non-motorized) input level pots simply do not work well together.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

stevetoney

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Re: Zoom F8
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2015, 01:22:22 PM »
Unless you don't care about what you're doing, the only thing that really matters is quality control and reliability.

This isn't true for everyone.  I could probably compensate for quality control and reliability issues by buying two (or even three) Zoom F8 and having the spares on hand if the first has issues.  I'm still 2 to 3 grand ahead though there's no way of knowing at this point if any of the Zooms will be working 20 years from now.

I've bought and sold X SD recorders over the years (I think I'm up to 5).  I love them and swear by them absolutely, but for my purposes I find myself always weighing the incremental investment against other stuff I need.  Eventually, there's always something else I need so the SD gets sold and I buy a less expensive, but equally functional consumer grade recorder. 

I'm not a pro, but to make up for the lower confidence level of consumer grade recorders I use, I have a number of redundant recorders.  I may or may not have them with me, though when I go to a festival I always pack back-ups in the car because there's nothing worse than going to a fest and having something fail on you on Day 1 and you can't record the rest of the weekend.

Admittedly, for a pro if there's a quality issue with the Zoom that causes you to lose an important shoot or client, the investment difference suddenly becomes a moot point.

 

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