Topic: Good day ya'll. Sony PCM-M10 related

[EWizard]

Good day everyone!
I just got my membership authenticated today and wanted to share my thoughts about the Sony PCM-M10 that I purchased a couple of days ago.
I bought this unit for a combination of live sound recording as well as digitizing my vinyl collection of things that I do not own in digital format already.
In the late 90's I used to do similar types of things with a portable Sony DAT machine, and this new unit seems to blow it away.

First impressions are this thing is dynamite in a small package.
The first thing I used it for was doing needle drops on some vinyl that needed to be digitized, recorded via the Line In from my Phono Preamp in 24bit/96k.
Sounds great, but maybe a tad bit sizzly on the top end.  I have been trying to keep the recording level down to where it peaks at -12db.  Does this sound correct?

Regarding live sound recording, I have been reading here that a great pairing for this unit is the church-audio stuff.
I plan on getting some CA-14 cards at some point, and probably a battery box or preamp from them as well.

Anyways, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this little product.

[adrianb]

Regarding live sound recording, I have been reading here that a great pairing for this unit is the church-audio stuff.
I plan on getting some CA-14 cards at some point, and probably a battery box or preamp from them as well.

Welcome to Taperssection. If you are quick you might just catch the best bargain ever ...

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=173300.0

[EWizard]

Jon,
Are you saying that I should be setting my levels to -3db peaks?
That makes sense, as I had to use the "amplify" effect in Audacity to bump the levels.
Thanks for the link Adrian, looks like a killer deal there!

[Ultfris101]

Yes, the M10 gets a lot of love around here. Great recorder.

For live recording when sound levels can fluctuate, -12db target is a good safe choice but as Jon points out you can be a little more aggressive if the source is less dynamic like when you're digitizing vinyl

There are a lot of threads about the M10 if you look back through the recorder section of the board. Welcome!

[achalsey]

^ Depends on who you ask...  -12 db is a common level around here but I know DSatz has pointed out on at least one occasion that it's a bit overly safe.  -6 db is probably safe enough and even a soft clip most likely will not be noticeable.

[Ozpeter]

There are a lot of threads about the M10 if you look back through the recorder section of the board. Welcome!

Current thread for general discussions about the M10 is http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=170179.0

[achalsey]

Right.  But, even for rock shows peaking at -12 is pretty conservative.

As to the OP, the green lights on the M10 activate at -12 dB's.  The red ones at -6.  Setting peaks towards -6 dbs is perfectly safe IMO.

[achalsey]

Ha!  That's a good point about the opener/main act.

[noahbickart]

An Lp can't have more than 14 bit resolution! You can run -12db down running at 24bit, normalize in post and you should have no more noise than running hot.

There's no need to do this, of course. As others state, you'll soon find the max level of your phono preamp.

Leave a little headroom, but no need for more than -3db or so. And at that point, why not just record at 16bit?

[Ozpeter]

An Lp can't have more than 14 bit resolution!

Yes, but there's the surface noise (clicks hiss and rumble) to take into account if you are doing any restoration work - in which case higher spec recording can be worthwhile.

[Gutbucket]

• The right amount of headroom is whatever is necessary to avoid going over 0dbFS.
• What value the peaking meter should indicate when setting levels prior to recording totally depends on the source and the situation.
• A PA amplified rock show is probably one of the least dynamic live recording situations, generally requiring less headroom than other live recording situations.
• The main act is usually louder than the opener.
• You never know for certain, that's what makes it live.
• A record or tape transfer is not live.  The highest signal level can be determined beforehand, or if an over happens, the transfer can be redone at a lower level.  So minimal headroom is required, technically none if you can find and measure the highest peak.  But its no fun redoing things and a few dB prevents having to do so.

 

An Lp can't have more than 14 bit resolution!

Yes, but there's the surface noise (clicks hiss and rumble) to take into account if you are doing any restoration work - in which case higher spec recording can be worthwhile.

What's your thinking there?  The transfer recording needn't have any higher dynamic capability than that which will contain the full range of the source.   If one consideres the surface noise to be signal just like the music, it doesn't take any more dynamic range to capture it.   Any restoration or sweetening work can be done at a higher bit-depth and/or sample-rate if the software tools perform more accurately and with less error that way, regardless of the bit-depth/sample-rate of the transfer recording, or the final file output.   

[Ozpeter]

What's your thinking there?

Trouble is, I'm going back a few years to when I used to do, and read about, that sort of stuff.  My recollection is that there are good reasons, when doing restoration, to start with a higher resolution recording than the original material would appear to merit.  This is because restoration software can better identify unwanted clicks and scratches if recorded at 24/96 than at lower specs.  However - google isn't immediately throwing up a supporting reference.

[DSatz]

Gutbucket wrote:

- The right amount of headroom is whatever is necessary to avoid going over 0dbFS.

That.

Headroom in the design of recording equipment--the ability to handle high signal levels gracefully--is a definite virtue. But this is a different meaning of "headroom". When you're setting the levels on a recorder, and you deliberately cordon off 6 or 10 or 12 dB from ever being used at all--that is sheer waste, and decreases the quality of the recording.

I'm only criticizing the mistaken idea that an optimal recording will have peak levels substantially below 0 dB, and that people should strive for that outcome. Of course you allow some margin of safety when you're not sure how loud things are going to get. But the goal and the hope should be for absolute peak levels to approach (but never quite reach) 0 dB, not some lower level, and especially not some much lower level such as -12 (or I've even heard -16).

--best regards