Topic: Picking a TC recorder: reliability

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Now that the TC recording method seems more clear, the next question is reliability.

The machines I am considering are the Tascam HD-P2, Fostex FR-2 and Edirol R4-Pro.

What I would like to get now is feedback on who bought any of those models on what problems they had.

It may be mechanical, electrical or handling problems, and if they could be solved easily. Sending it back to be repaired would be a problem, so reliability is a must for me.

[John Willett]

To be honest - I think they are all equally good.

I have used the FR-2, and I know people who use the HD-P2 and R-04Pro.

Personally - I would scrape the extra cash and go for the new Nagra LB.

More money, but it's a true pro machine.

Personally I am getting the Nagra VI next week (but this is a 6-channel machine and more than double the price of the LB). 

[dallman]

Now that the TC recording method seems more clear, the next question is reliability.

The machines I am considering are the Tascam HD-P2, Fostex FR-2 and Edirol R4-Pro.

What I would like to get now is feedback on who bought any of those models on what problems they had.

It may be mechanical, electrical or handling problems, and if they could be solved easily. Sending it back to be repaired would be a problem, so reliability is a must for me.

I use the Tascam HD-P2, and it is a simple easy machine. Especially since I don't have to change settings between shows for any reason, it is just turn it on, hit record.

I understand for some, a negative is that it only supports up to an 8gb card, but I record at 24/48, and have never come close to running out of space. And I use Samsung 8gb CF cards which are all over eBay for under $40.00, so having a few as backup is very reasonable.

I have never had a single problem or failure in any of my recordings on the unit and I have owned it for about 2 full years.

I think the other machines are quite good too, but this is my own personal experience. 

[Carlos E. Martinez]

To be honest - I think they are all equally good.

Well, that's good news.

I have used the FR-2, and I know people who use the HD-P2 and R-04Pro.

And what do they comment on them?

Personally - I would scrape the extra cash and go for the new Nagra LB.

More money, but it's a true pro machine.

Do you know how much more money? I couldn't find any price for it.

It doesn't seem to have TC though.

Personally I am getting the Nagra VI next week (but this is a 6-channel machine and more than double the price of the LB)

It's really 4 mic in, and for that kind of money I'd go for the Sound Devices 744, or even the new 8 channel model. For now I can't afford that.

[John Willett]

To be honest - I think they are all equally good.

Well, that's good news.

I have used the FR-2, and I know people who use the HD-P2 and R-04Pro.

And what do they comment on them?

Only good - they all seem to be OK and trouble-free.  But they all have plastic bodies.

Personally - I would scrape the extra cash and go for the new Nagra LB.

More money, but it's a true pro machine.

Do you know how much more money? I couldn't find any price for it.

It doesn't seem to have TC though.

Bum! - I thought it did.  I have just rung them to check, no it doesn't at the moment - sorry.  It may get added later, though.  Price is likely to be about £1,600 in the UK - due out soon.

Personally I am getting the Nagra VI next week (but this is a 6-channel machine and more than double the price of the LB)

It's really 4 mic in, and for that kind of money I'd go for the Sound Devices 744, or even the new 8 channel model. For now I can't afford that.

Actually I have now found out that it's similar to the SD 788 in price (exchange rate thing).

BUT - the Nagra is 24/96 and the 788 is only 24/48 (and the 744 only has two mic. inputs).  The other reason I like the Nagra is that it runs cool and does not get hot - meaning that it is likely to have a long service life as they are not running everything to extremes.  Standard battery life is 4-5 hours and an optional battery that can give 10-12 hours life.  The larger size makes it more ergonomic and easier to use.  And the mic. pres are superb.

The SD is still an excellent unit, of course - making it so small seems to mean running it hotter, limiting sample rate to 48kHz and having cramped controls - the Nagra runs cool and has better spaced controls, but at the expense of making it larger.  The lack of 96kHz made the 788 a no-no for me, I'm afraid.

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Only good - they all seem to be OK and trouble-free.  But they all have plastic bodies.

Very true. You have to go up to $2500 SD 702T to get a metal body.

Actually I have now found out that it's similar to the SD 788 in price (exchange rate thing).

A good deal indeed. Being Nagra I would certainly consider it.

BUT - the Nagra is 24/96 and the 788 is only 24/48 (and the 744 only has two mic. inputs). 

All SD units go up to 192 in sampling. The SD ergonomics are very good too, even if it takes some learning to get there.

The other reason I like the Nagra is that it runs cool and does not get hot - meaning that it is likely to have a long service life as they are not running everything to extremes.  Standard battery life is 4-5 hours and an optional battery that can give 10-12 hours life.  The larger size makes it more ergonomic and easier to use.  And the mic. pres are superb.

It runs cool but it runs large, at 320mm. But ergonomics seem very good too. Nagra weight won't be low, as they don't specify it with batteries. 

I prefer the SD LED metering to Nagra's LCD screens, both for visual and long life reliability. The SD using Sony type batteries is great.

The SD is still an excellent unit, of course - making it so small seems to mean running it hotter, limiting sample rate to 48kHz and having cramped controls - the Nagra runs cool and has better spaced controls, but at the expense of making it larger.  The lack of 96kHz made the 788 a no-no for me, I'm afraid.

The fact that you can actually control the Nagra inputs properly from the front panel is excellent, even if it's only 4 channels. It's also good that you can mix the four channels to 5 & 6, which I don't know if you can do on the 788.

As I said there's no sampling limitation on the 788.

In any case if I get into the market for higher priced machine I would seriously consider the Nagra VI. Thanks for the tip. 

[wbrisette]

Now that the TC recording method seems more clear, the next question is reliability.

Are you doing this for music or for film? Time code in music is a nice to have on multichannel recorders, but not a must have. If film is what you need it for, then it's a crap shoot. I've used it along with a TC slate on indie pictures where there is no way to jam the cameras, and I've used it on features where we shot on 35 mm film, so there is no audio, and telecine uses it for matching up the audio and video.

Is there a specific reason you want TC, or is this a nice to have? How many channels do you want? There are options like the Zaxcom Fusion, Deva, Aaton Cantar, Fostex PD606, and others depending on how much you want to spend.

Wayne

[Carlos E. Martinez]

I use the Tascam HD-P2, and it is a simple easy machine. Especially since I don't have to change settings between shows for any reason, it is just turn it on, hit record.

That would probably be my case too, except for TC settings, which would usually be very similar though.

I understand for some, a negative is that it only supports up to an 8gb card, but I record at 24/48, and have never come close to running out of space.

24/48 is the standard for film/video, AFAIK, so it would suit too. How much can you get for that?

I have never had a single problem or failure in any of my recordings on the unit and I have owned it for about 2 full years.

Excellent!

I think the other machines are quite good too, but this is my own personal experience. 

That's what I need to know. 

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Are you doing this for music or for film? Time code in music is a nice to have on multichannel recorders, but not a must have. If film is what you need it for, then it's a crap shoot. I've used it along with a TC slate on indie pictures where there is no way to jam the cameras, and I've used it on features where we shot on 35 mm film, so there is no audio, and telecine uses it for matching up the audio and video.

I would be using it for film or video. Rarely for music, and probably not with TC.

Is there a specific reason you want TC, or is this a nice to have? How many channels do you want? There are options like the Zaxcom Fusion, Deva, Aaton Cantar, Fostex PD606, and others depending on how much you want to spend.

As I don't know yet how much market I may have, I want to start with more basic models. I need to TC capability for the film/video productions.

I come from film, from Nagra times, but it's been some time since I don't do a location as sound recordist. 

[JasonSobel]

I use the Tascam HD-P2, and it is a simple easy machine. Especially since I don't have to change settings between shows for any reason, it is just turn it on, hit record.

That would probably be my case too, except for TC settings, which would usually be very similar though.

I understand for some, a negative is that it only supports up to an 8gb card, but I record at 24/48, and have never come close to running out of space.

24/48 is the standard for film/video, AFAIK, so it would suit too. How much can you get for that?

Running at 24/48, with an 8 GB card, will be 8 hours of record time.  I also have been using an HD-P2 for a little more than 2 years now, and it's been rock solid, no problems.  I usually run at 24/96 (with 4 hours recording time on an 8GB card).   I've used the word clock feature a few times, to sync to other HD-P2's, but I've never used the TC features.  Also, just for clarification, you can use cards larger than 8GB in the HD-P2, and it will record to them just fine up until the point where 8GB is recorded to the card.  then the deck just freezes up, unfortunately.  I have a 16 GB card that I use sometimes, and I just know that I can only use 8GB of the card.  Tascam is aware of the issue, but it certainly doesn't seem like a priority for them to get it fixed.

[wbrisette]

Are you doing this for music or for film? Time code in music is a nice to have on multichannel recorders, but not a must have. If film is what you need it for, then it's a crap shoot. I've used it along with a TC slate on indie pictures where there is no way to jam the cameras, and I've used it on features where we shot on 35 mm film, so there is no audio, and telecine uses it for matching up the audio and video.

I would be using it for film or video. Rarely for music, and probably not with TC.

Is there a specific reason you want TC, or is this a nice to have? How many channels do you want? There are options like the Zaxcom Fusion, Deva, Aaton Cantar, Fostex PD606, and others depending on how much you want to spend.

As I don't know yet how much market I may have, I want to start with more basic models. I need to TC capability for the film/video productions.

I come from film, from Nagra times, but it's been some time since I don't do a location as sound recordist. 

Here are some things to think about. Depending on what you are shooting, nobody may be using time code. In fact, 90% of the things I've worked on don't require time code, or they want time code, but shoot on HD video cameras that can't take time code, so you're the only person who really has time code.

You may want to look more seriously at the Fusion. You can purchase it as a 4 channel recorder without all the effects, and these things can be added later simply by calling Zaxcom and having them give you a code you enter into the unit to enable those features. The thing I like most about the unit is that not only is it lightweight, but it's a full-blown mixer and recorder. You have 8 analog inputs and outputs, and 4 digital inputs and outputs. Time code, plus STN information and sound report capability that you don't have on many of the other units. The only real downside is that the unit only records on CF cards, so you need to put that information on a DVD or similar to turn into post.

I borrowed a Fusion to test out from a documentary filmmaker here in town and it works very well and I think is one of the easier units to use with the touch screen interface (of course I'm biased because it works similar to the Deva). I am not overly fond of the menu system on the SD 7 series recorders. I find that way too cumbersome.

Wayne

[John Willett]

As I said there's no sampling limitation on the 788.

That's not what Sound Devices say.

From their website - spec. of the 788T:-
Sampling Frequency:
internal: 32, 44.1, 47.952, 48, 48.048
external clocking: 32–48.048 kHz via word clock or digital inputs

Max. is 48.048kHz - no 88.2, 96 or 192.

The smaller machines may be OK, but *not* the 788.

[Carlos E. Martinez]

You may want to look more seriously at the Fusion. You can purchase it as a 4 channel recorder without all the effects

It looks very nice and interesting... as long as it doesn't cost more than the 788 or this Nagra VI I was introduced to today. IMHO it's not necessary to spend more than that on a sound recorder. Devas, Cantar and others are not for me. The use I will get for them will not pay them.

[wbrisette]

Well I think you're going to find the Fusion just a bit more than the 788. However, that said, if you really are going to use this for film, you're going to want to enter STN information. On the fusion this can be done via the touch screen. On the 788, you have to use a USB keyboard to do it. The 788 isn't the easiest thing to mix with, so you're going to need to use an external mixing board with it, on the fusion, you have all channels available for mixing from the unit itself.

As far as the Nagra goes, I do hope they can really make a go at the digital realm this time. They have tried and tried, but just haven't been able to really break out with a product. The new Nagra from what I can tell is around 5,000 euros, haven't been able to find a US price, but that would put this unit in direct competition with the Fusion. It does have some very nice features on it, but like many recorders is limited by hardware. If they want to add a new feature, they will have to make a new box and a new knob. One of the best investments I have ever made was getting the Deva three (nearly four now) years ago. The unit is nothing like it was four years ago. Substantial changes have been made via firmware updates, from on-screen faders to routing options, eq, compression and more. The reason this can be done on the Deva and Fusion is because while the box itself looks pretty utilitarian, the color touch screen allows Zaxcom to continually update and modify the unit. If they need a new feature, they simply add a new button or screen to allow that feature.

Again, I'm very biased, and while I see nice options from other companies, I still haven't seen any recorder that has as much flexibility and versatility as the Zaxcom Deva and Fusion for film work. But then, I work on productions know the stress mixers and boom ops are under when filming, and what is required on set.

Wayne

[John Willett]

The Nagra VI *can* be software upgraded and has been designed to be able to do this.

Personally I don't like the Deva very much - a friend has one and has now given up on it.

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Any of those units, Deva or Nagra, would make my life certainly easier, but they are out of my possibilities for now, as I said.

Available work over here, in Brazil or Argentina, would not pay for any of them.

On the other hand I already have mixers, TC clapper and mics from my rental business, so all I need is a simple TC capable recorder.

[wbrisette]

Seems to me that you probably want to look at the Tascam if you only want 2 channels, or the Edirol R44 if you want four channels then.

They are some of the least expensive timecode recorders out there.

Wayne

[wbrisette]

The Nagra VI *can* be software upgraded and has been designed to be able to do this.

Personally I don't like the Deva very much - a friend has one and has now given up on it.

That's good to know about the Nagra. There really is very little information on that unit out there.

As far as the Deva goes, to each there own. Seems most of the big picture mixers here in the states are using them. A few have the Cantars, but for the most part if you're doing major productions, you're using the Deva here in the states. That's not to say it is a perfect product, but I don't think there currently is a mixer/recorder that works as well over the shoulder as it does on a cart... Maybe the Nagra will fit into that niche too, but it's a bit early to tell.

Wayne (yep, I'm biased towards the Deva) B.

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Seems to me that you probably want to look at the Tascam if you only want 2 channels, or the Edirol R44 if you want four channels then.

They are some of the least expensive timecode recorders out there.

Just to have an opinion: what about the Fostex?

[wbrisette]

Seems to me that you probably want to look at the Tascam if you only want 2 channels, or the Edirol R44 if you want four channels then.

They are some of the least expensive timecode recorders out there.

Just to have an opinion: what about the Fostex?

I haven't used the Fostex, so I have no opinions of it. Seems that people on this board seem to only like it after the analog input stage has been rebuilt. But, then they aren't using it for film/video, but for music which is a bit more demanding.

Wayne

[Carlos E. Martinez]

I haven't used the Fostex, so I have no opinions of it. Seems that people on this board seem to only like it after the analog input stage has been rebuilt. But, then they aren't using it for film/video, but for music which is a bit more demanding.

Interesting. I think film/video is more demanding that music, at least the music you will record stealthing. Non-amplified instruments do demand better preamps and mics, but that is rarely done by people in this forum.

OTOS, something unusual I have seen were some tests done with nature bird singing and the files they recorded with them. Can't remember the URL. The Fostex and Tascam (besides the Sound Devices) did quite well on it. The Edirol was not that good, if I remember well. All preamps were the original ones.

[stevetoney]

I have a Fostex HD-P2 and ran the stock unit for music recording for awhile.  Although I have just received my upgraded unit back from Chris Johnson (busman) in the mail today, I also was quite happy with the sound performance of the stock unit.  However, even if you feel that the sound performance of the stock model is not up to the standards that you would like to have, Chris's upgrade service is not expensive ($175USD excluding shipping) especially when compared to the prices that you are talking about for some of the other units that have been discussed in this thread.

[Carlos E. Martinez]

I have a Fostex HD-P2 and ran the stock unit for music recording for awhile.  Although I have just received my upgraded unit back from Chris Johnson (busman) in the mail today, I also was quite happy with the sound performance of the stock unit.  However, even if you feel that the sound performance of the stock model is not up to the standards that you would like to have, Chris's upgrade service is not expensive ($175USD excluding shipping) especially when compared to the prices that you are talking about for some of the other units that have been discussed in this thread.

Do you have a cross-model or you misnamed the unit? 

Yes, the Chris Johnson mod seems to be a good thing for the Tascam and the Fostex. Even if in my case I would buy this unit direct from B&H.

[George2]

No TC, but a nice stock recorder.

http://www.fostexinternational.com/cgi-bin/viewnews.cgi?id=EkEEkVFylFpFGLULFQ&tmpl=viewnews_pro_head


http://www.avisoft.com/recordertests.htm