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Author Topic: upgrading to a digital recorder  (Read 5247 times)

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Offline DaveH

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upgrading to a digital recorder
« on: August 02, 2010, 11:05:00 AM »
Now that I have a decent mic (CA-1), I'm looking to upgrade from my mini disc recorder. I've been looking at the various digital recorders but I'm still not sure which one to go with. The other thought is I'm looking into getting a cell phone (and moving out of my cave) and since these gadgets seem to do everything but make pancakes, is there any one that can be used as a digital recorder for concerts? From what I've seen, I don't think that technology has yet arrived. My recording needs are very basic, I only record for personal use and enjoyment (although if anyone else is interested in any recordings, I have no problem working out trades, but of late this has been a rarity at best).

I've noticed the Tascam DR-7 and TEAC-VR-10 for sale at Sound Professionals for $99 and think this would be a good idea, but if the technology exists elsewhere, I'd like to know before I jump the gun. Basically, I don't want to make the same stupid mistake I did three years ago investing in out of date media or something that only lasts for a handful of shows. Any suggestions?

One last question, can anyone explain why all these digital recorders, apparently designed for live recording, have sub-par internal microphones and mic in lines that overload easily? It seems strange that the old analog cassette recorders could record shows by simply running a mic into the unit, whereas the digital media requires a battery box and line in usage.

Offline guysonic

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Re: upgrading to a digital recorder
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2010, 11:14:51 AM »
From where you're coming from, you can do no better than Sony PCM-M10 in terms of ease of use, cost, audio quality, long battery running time, and super discounted for $199 at http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=pcm-m10-black&N=0&InitialSearch=yes in the cart!
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Offline su6oxone

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Re: upgrading to a digital recorder
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2010, 12:34:29 PM »
Agree with the M10 suggestion, and you also can send in a mail-in rebate for a free carrying case (more like a storage case) from Sony... all that for $199 -- it's a great deal.

Offline DaveH

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Re: upgrading to a digital recorder
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2010, 01:03:37 PM »
Just out of curiousity, what is the difference between the PCM-M10 and Tascam DR-07 and other cheaper ($150 or less) models? (Limitations, cheaper build, extras etc.) As much as I've looked into some of these, there is still some confusion.

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Re: upgrading to a digital recorder
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2010, 01:47:33 PM »
Just out of curiousity, what is the difference between the PCM-M10 and Tascam DR-07 and other cheaper ($150 or less) models? (Limitations, cheaper build, extras etc.) As much as I've looked into some of these, there is still some confusion.
Personally, the M10 is the way to go right now.  Seems to have a good build quality and gets very favourable reviews (good noise floor, 4 GB internal memory - enough for 4 hours @ 24/48, and 20+ hour battery life).  The Sony can record 24/96 whereas the Tascam you've mentioned is only 24/48.  I don't think you'd go wrong with the M10 at $200 as others have mentioned.  I have the original Edirol R09.  If I was looking to upgrade, I'd get an M10 in a second.

Offline DaveH

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Re: upgrading to a digital recorder
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2010, 01:58:03 PM »
Thanks for the input all. Excuse the ignorance here, but I have never been able to figure out the 24/96 versus 24/48 specs, I would assume the higher the second number, the better quality.
Just one other item that hasn't been addressed, the cell phone. Is there any technology that is out there to record a show onto the cell phone in roughly the same quality as the digital recorders? I have yet to see or hear about any, the only thing I'm aware of is simple voice recording, something definitely not recommended for concert recording. Can anyone else verify this? Thanks.

Offline rastasean

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Re: upgrading to a digital recorder
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2010, 02:15:33 PM »
24/96 takes up more space so it must recorder at a better sampling rate. pure mathematics. :)

A number of things record to the iphone but the quality probably would suffer a lot. It is interesting lots of people ask questions about recording to cell phones but I haven't seen any LMA recordings or any on bit torrents using cell phones. some phones only have mono inputs so one microphone would produce the same as two.
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Offline notlance

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Re: upgrading to a digital recorder
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2010, 05:30:28 PM »
24/96 takes up more space so it must recorder at a better sampling rate. pure mathematics. :)

The second number refers to the sample rate, in kHz.  Common rates are 44.1 kHz, 48 kHz, 88.2 kHz, 98 kHz and 192 kHz.  The Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem states that perfect reconstruction of a signal is possible when the sampling frequency is greater than twice the maximum frequency of the signal being sampled.  In other words, a 44.1 kHz sample rate can record frequencies up to 22.05 kHz.  The commonly accepted upper limit for human hearing is 20 kHz.  Higher sampling rates can record higher frequencies, but higher sampling rates are not intrinsically better than lower sampling rates.

Offline DSatz

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Re: upgrading to a digital recorder
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2010, 11:45:39 PM »
DaveH, the way things developed historically in the audio industry, 44.1 kHz was chosen as the standard sampling rate for Compact Disc in part because the only suitable recording medium at the time was videotape, and 44.056 or 44.1 kHz were just high enough to allow recording audio up to 20 kHz while being compatible with various standard frame rates for video.

44.1 kHz wasn't ideal in all respects, however. This was back in the days of all-analog filtering (late 1970s to early 1980s), and filters steep enough to allow (nearly) flat response to (nearly) 20 kHz while being significantly down by 22.05 kHz were difficult and expensive to manufacture, and they weren't always sonically transparent.

One way to facilitate the use of sonically better filters is to raise the sampling rate while keeping the 20 kHz limit. But that's not the only possible way to improve digital recording quality by far, and it's definitely not "the higher the sampling rate the better" except in some people's imaginations--there are still a lot of people who fundamentally misunderstand how digital audio works, and in my experience those are almost invariably the people who expect higher sampling rates to sound better automatically.

The practical limit on any real benefit in terms of reproducible, audible sound fidelity might perhaps be somewhere around 60 kHz, but unfortunately that's not a standard frequency (strangely, while 32 kHz is a standard sampling rate, 64 kHz is not). 88.2 and 96 kHz are standard rates and while even higher rates exist, they're pretty much an exercise in doing something "because you can." In certain respects the higher you go the worse it can get, depending on the implementation.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2010, 11:47:12 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline yug du nord

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Re: upgrading to a digital recorder
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2010, 12:58:03 AM »
The practical limit on any real benefit in terms of reproducible, audible sound fidelity might perhaps be somewhere around 60 kHz, but unfortunately that's not a standard frequency (strangely, while 32 kHz is a standard sampling rate, 64 kHz is not). 88.2 and 96 kHz are standard rates and while even higher rates exist, they're pretty much an exercise in doing something "because you can." In certain respects the higher you go the worse it can get, depending on the implementation.

^^^slight hijack of thread...... 

I've been considering playing around with 192kHz for the heck of it.....  "because I can" I guess....
I usually record in 48kHz...... 
Are you saying that 192kHz won't make a difference in sound quality compared to 48kHz....  at least to the human ear??  And the resulting audio could possibly be worse than 48kHz??

If I record in 192kHz,  I don't get much record time on my current recording media...  so it's not something that I'll do very much if any.....  but I've been curious if I could be able to tell a difference.  Thanks.
.....got a blank space where my mind should be.....

Offline groovon

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Re: upgrading to a digital recorder
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2010, 01:44:00 AM »
The practical limit on any real benefit in terms of reproducible, audible sound fidelity might perhaps be somewhere around 60 kHz, but unfortunately that's not a standard frequency (strangely, while 32 kHz is a standard sampling rate, 64 kHz is not). 88.2 and 96 kHz are standard rates and while even higher rates exist, they're pretty much an exercise in doing something "because you can." In certain respects the higher you go the worse it can get, depending on the implementation.

^^^slight hijack of thread...... 

I've been considering playing around with 192kHz for the heck of it.....  "because I can" I guess....
I usually record in 48kHz...... 
Are you saying that 192kHz won't make a difference in sound quality compared to 48kHz....  at least to the human ear??  And the resulting audio could possibly be worse than 48kHz??

If I record in 192kHz,  I don't get much record time on my current recording media...  so it's not something that I'll do very much if any.....  but I've been curious if I could be able to tell a difference.  Thanks.

Say there's a theoretically audible improvement in using 192kHz over 96kHz. In order to hear that improvement, all the rest of your equipment, right up to your playback system, would have to be up to the task - i.e., of absolutely superlative quality. That is not the case with too many people, and so not many people can (or have the opportunity to) hear the difference. I guess 24-bit/96kHz recording is, currently at least, at the 'point of diminishing returns' (so you may hear an improvement using 96kHz over 48kHz, but perhaps not so much of one between 96kHz and 192kHz).
« Last Edit: August 03, 2010, 02:25:56 AM by groovon »

Offline Kevin T

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Re: upgrading to a digital recorder
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2010, 08:58:57 AM »
Thanks for the input all. Excuse the ignorance here, but I have never been able to figure out the 24/96 versus 24/48 specs, I would assume the higher the second number, the better quality.
Just one other item that hasn't been addressed, the cell phone. Is there any technology that is out there to record a show onto the cell phone in roughly the same quality as the digital recorders? I have yet to see or hear about any, the only thing I'm aware of is simple voice recording, something definitely not recommended for concert recording. Can anyone else verify this? Thanks.
I work doing audio testing for a wireless provider. I would love if they. Did.the relitively simple design work to add quality stereo recording to. Smart phones. However these phones are so crammed with apps & crap they barely work as a. Phone anymore . Trust me you don't want a
Tascam cellphone :)

Offline DaveH

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Re: upgrading to a digital recorder
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2010, 10:08:56 AM »
Thanks for the input, that's was the general feeling I was getting, but it's nice to hear it from somebody in the field.

Thanks for the input all. Excuse the ignorance here, but I have never been able to figure out the 24/96 versus 24/48 specs, I would assume the higher the second number, the better quality.
Just one other item that hasn't been addressed, the cell phone. Is there any technology that is out there to record a show onto the cell phone in roughly the same quality as the digital recorders? I have yet to see or hear about any, the only thing I'm aware of is simple voice recording, something definitely not recommended for concert recording. Can anyone else verify this? Thanks.
I work doing audio testing for a wireless provider. I would love if they. Did.the relitively simple design work to add quality stereo recording to. Smart phones. However these phones are so crammed with apps & crap they barely work as a. Phone anymore . Trust me you don't want a
Tascam cellphone :)


Offline DaveH

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Re: upgrading to a digital recorder
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2010, 11:57:26 AM »
One last thing (think I said that before but there you go), with the Sony PCM-M10, do you need a battery box or can you go mic in on a low setting? I already have a BB, but it would be nice to just run the mic-in and not worry about the extra gear.

Offline Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)

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Re: upgrading to a digital recorder
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2010, 12:41:49 PM »
One last thing (think I said that before but there you go), with the Sony PCM-M10, do you need a battery box or can you go mic in on a low setting? I already have a BB, but it would be nice to just run the mic-in and not worry about the extra gear.

I ran CA-1's > M10 the other day without any problems. So you can. You might want to try both ways to see if you can hear the difference, but the mics will work straight into the recorder.
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