Topic: Weird Orchestra Miking

[chris319]

I may be working again with a youth symphony orchestra, the conductor of which used to be very lenient about mic placement when I've recorded them in the past. They have since changed venues and the conductor has become quite restrictive about mic placement. I am trying to think of a way to place mics where they will really be out of the way yet still be within the critical distance.

My idea is to place a pair in front of and just below the conductor's podium where it will not block her line of sight to the orchestra and not be in view of the audience. I realize this is unconventional and likely suboptimal, and my first thought is that we'll hear a lot of page turning on the conductor's podium, but they get what they get if they're going to be so restrictive about mic placement. To complicate matters further, there may also be a piano accompanist which ideally would be spot miked.

Another much less optimal idea would be to place a PZM on the floor in front of the conductor's podium. In this scenario the mic would REALLY be out of the way, but it seems like it would be fraught with problems. They would get a mono recording but IMO a halfway decent mono recording would beat a crappy stereo recording.

Back in May they had their big, gala 10th-anniversary concert. The conductor's husband borrowed my Sony PCM-D50 and thought he could set it up just any old place and get a recording. Well, he got a recording all right which he thinks is fine but is actually quite painful to listen to. I may work with them again on their upcoming Xmas concert, or I may turn them down and loan them the PCM-D50 again with the advice to place it somewhere within the critical distance. At the moment I'm merely tossing ideas around in my head and was wondering if anyone had tried such an unconventional miking technique.

[acidjack]

Do you have any option to go overhead - like above the orchestra with small hanging mics? I believe that's the most common way it's actually done.

You could also try recording from the optimal location in the crowd - i.e. further back.  I believe Jerry Bruck often records classical that way, with an HRTF sphere with Schoeps omnis on either side.  But don't quote me on that. 

Paging DSatz.

[runonce]

Well without really seeing the setup - who knows - the podium might be fine, or at least the best compromise.

But agree with acidjack - unless you've ruled it out...take a look in the venue.
If they are used to having choral music, you may find they already have ceiling mics.
Often hung on wires or long thin booms...they are easy to miss, (sometimes they are white/tan to match the venue)
So if you're not familiar with the venue, might be worth a second look.

[ScoobieKW]

Hang if at all possible. AT853s are a choir mic with hangers.

You could try split omnis boundary mounted to the floor, take mousepads, place them black side up. lay your omnis on top.

PZM style results with a better capsule than most PZM mics have. The visual clutter is reduced to black gear on black floor.

[DigiGal]

Running low is definately not a good idea, the high frequencies rise. A stereo pair pointed down slightly about 6ft behind the conductor and 8ft above the performers floor. If the orchestra and soloist are properly placed this will yeild a great stereo recording. This really won't be in the way but you could suspend spaced cards or omnis behind the conductor above the orchestra for A/B if that works for you.  Another option is move back into the hall with mid/side which will allow you to control the stereo width in post.

If it were me I wouldn't loan them my recorder or mics. Let them get their own or borrow/rent from someone else. When they mess it up they'll want you to come back and will be more open to mic placement. Amateur orchestra might not know a good recording from bad and could have a few wannabe tapers that think they can do it better by keeping mics out of sight but that would be their loss as long as they're happy with their own results they can live with it.

[chris319]

There are no existing hanging mics at the venue, and rigging same is a good idea but is more work than I'm willing to put in for them (I donate my services). I had considered a boom arm with the base located behind the orchestra and the boom extended downstage over the heads of the orchestra, but there are safety concerns as the base would have to be sufficiently weighted so as not to tip over from the leverage of the boom arm.

Another option is move back into the hall with mid/side which will allow you to control the stereo width in post.

Distance was the enemy in their last recording. Aside from room reverberation you pick up more audience noise.

You could try split omnis boundary mounted to the floor, take mousepads, place them black side up. lay your omnis on top.

PZM style results with a better capsule than most PZM mics have. The visual clutter is reduced to black gear on black floor.

Or, I could instruct them to simply lay the Sony recorder on the floor. This would give them (sort of) boundary mics. Not a bad idea. http://futuremusic.com/news/images/sony_pcm-d50_sides.jpg. This doesn't take care of spot miking a piano but for that they would have to bring me in.

When they mess it up they'll want you to come back and will be more open to mic placement.

They think the recording they got is OK, thus no need for me to come back. In essence I'm trying to save them from themselves.

[jnorman34]

basically, i'd say you are screwed.  low placement in front of the podium will be a disaster in terms of imaging and depth and balance.  boundary mics just suck any way you look at it - i hate them and would never use them.  also, i simply wont take a gig where they do not want it recorded properly any more - it always comes out badly, and i dont want to take responsibility for bad recordings, even for real money.

if you cant hang, a low profile setup is your best bet, but it is going to have to be at a decent height, no less than about 8 feet to provide front-to-rear balance, and it should be pretty much right behind the conductor.  i have seen guys use a very slender 12' stand made from an Ikea lamp stand with a thin cross bar at the top, that they mounted a pair of DPA 4061s on - very minimally visually intrusive.

if that wont work, you could try making your own semi-hanging setup with two mic stands - one on either side of the group with a thin line of fishing line connecting them.  then you run a pair of something like DPA 4061s as far out on the line as you can to get the mics closer to proper placement over the front of hte group.

[DigiGal]

basically, i'd say you are screwed.  low placement in front of the podium will be a disaster in terms of imaging and depth and balance.  boundary mics just suck any way you look at it - i hate them and would never use them.  also, i simply wont take a gig where they do not want it recorded properly any more - it always comes out badly, and i dont want to take responsibility for bad recordings, even for real money.

if you cant hang, a low profile setup is your best bet, but it is going to have to be at a decent height, no less than about 8 feet to provide front-to-rear balance, and it should be pretty much right behind the conductor.  i have seen guys use a very slender 12' stand made from an Ikea lamp stand with a thin cross bar at the top, that they mounted a pair of DPA 4061s on - very minimally visually intrusive.

if that wont work, you could try making your own semi-hanging setup with two mic stands - one on either side of the group with a thin line of fishing line connecting them.  then you run a pair of something like DPA 4061s as far out on the line as you can to get the mics closer to proper placement over the front of hte group.

You've got to get the mics up high and in front of the orchestra not behind or down low.  In classical music, hall ambience can enhance the recording with proper placement and technique.  My first suggestion in my last post is a good suggestion, run an ORTF pair at that location.  You'll get a nice stereo recording with easy setup and minimal obstruction.

[chris319]

basically, i'd say you are screwed.

Yup, I'm screwed. However, if you heard their last recording you would agree that almost anything would be an improvement, it's just that awful.

A stereo pair pointed down slightly about 6ft behind the conductor and 8ft above the performers floor.

You've got to get the mics up high and in front of the orchestra not behind or down low.  In classical music, hall ambience can enhance the recording with proper placement and technique.  My first suggestion in my last post is a good suggestion, run an ORTF pair at that location.  You'll get a nice stereo recording with easy setup and minimal obstruction.

That's all true but the devil is in the details in coming up with a mounting scheme which will pass muster with the conductor and not be a PITA to set up and strike. You've defined the problem but lack a solution. I know the "textbook" way of recording an orchestra but am looking into non-textbook mic placement with the dual goals of being unobtrusive and easy to set up.

you could try making your own semi-hanging setup with two mic stands - one on either side of the group with a thin line of fishing line connecting them.  then you run a pair of something like DPA 4061s as far out on the line as you can to get the mics closer to proper placement over the front of hte group.

I could use the DPA mic cables themselves as the "clothesline" and devise a spacer to keep the mics at the proper separation. I would seriously consider doing this IF I had a pair of DPA's. This (non-paying*) client has exhausted my generosity toward them so I don't envision the acquisition of a pair of DPA's.

*It is a non-profit organization and I donate my services. If not for me there would be no recording at all.

[dyneq]

How about a mic stand right in front of the conductor's stand (as high as the conductor will allow)? It's still a bit lower than optimal, but should still sound decent.

[DigiGal]

basically, i'd say you are screwed.

Yup, I'm screwed. However, if you heard their last recording you would agree that almost anything would be an improvement, it's just that awful.

A stereo pair pointed down slightly about 6ft behind the conductor and 8ft above the performers floor.

You've got to get the mics up high and in front of the orchestra not behind or down low.  In classical music, hall ambience can enhance the recording with proper placement and technique.  My first suggestion in my last post is a good suggestion, run an ORTF pair at that location.  You'll get a nice stereo recording with easy setup and minimal obstruction.

That's all true but the devil is in the details in coming up with a mounting scheme which will pass muster with the conductor and not be a PITA to set up and strike. You've defined the problem but lack a solution.

Like I suggested run an ORTF config about 6 ft behind the conductor and get the mics up about 8ft above the performance floor.  Didn't realize you would need more specifics than that.  We don't know what you have for mics and the only equipment you actually mentioned having is a D50 recorder.  Do you have mics or is it only a recorder with built in mics?

Basically you'll need a tall light stand, 13 ft should do (preferably black) with a thread adapter to fit your mic mount, ie; 3/8" 16 or 5/8" 27.  How you obtain an ORTF config depends what ya got for mics and mounts but ORTF prescribes the mics angled 110° with center of the capsules 17 cm apart.    Here is visual showing how I run ORTF it's very compact.  I actually took this photo to demonstrate the cardellini clamp but I usually run the setup atop the stand without a clamp.  A shockmount is optional but recommended.



It doesn't get much simpler, it's just one stand behind the conductor which puts your mics in an ideal spot.  It picks up the orchestra and soloist resulting in a nicely balanced recording if the members are positioned properly.  It does not block sight lines between players and conductor and essentially not a hindrance for the audience either.  It's easy to set up and/or strike and doesn't involve long cables suspended from above.

If one stand at that location is too much for them and if you're certain that you can't get a good recording by moving further back then gracefully bow out and leave them to their own devices & consequences.

[Gutbucket]

I'll play the contrarian..

Personally I get great results from down low.  I've actually come to prefer it in an excellent sounding room when approached creatively in a number of situations.  The sense of depth in a good room can be luxurious.  Often that's from the center front row, mics at about stage level, about 6-8' behind the conductor.  ORTF would work.. I typically prefer to use three baffled DPA 4060 omnis as a not very widely spaced Left/Center/Right array.  Using diffuse field response omnis the room ambience is correct tonally for the rear of the orchestra even though there is no direct line of sight.  The soloist is close and and the front violins radiate their brightness upwards- which mic'd close from above would be over bright due to both the mic's diffuse response and the voilin's proximity in comparison to the other instruments, but from in front and below they sound warmer and better tonally balanced with the rest of the instrumentation while still within the critical distance for direct sound clarity.  It does takes a good room for the back row to retain good clarity, but if so it can sound super lush and ambient with room bloom around the horns and percussion and a listening perspective which is appropriate to actual live listening.  Done well, that depth and combination of upfront clarity with ambient depth is down right addictive and quite unusual in commercial classical recordings.  It will not sound like those "mics on every instrument- everything in your face with no perspective" totally unatural things so often seen on TV which people who actually go and listen from a good seat find sonically dead and abhorant.  Mic'ing from above is the standard approach, designed to limit the difference in distance to the rear compared to the front, but because of that it is also a step towards that unnatural "everything of equal sounding depth and timbre" direction.  Go the other way!  IMO great classical recordings are about great performances in great sounding rooms with a well balanced yet real depth perspective.  It makes everything bigger.

[OK, defence of low mic perpective rant /off]

If you can't put mics out out view, low and near front row center (front row is not the money seats 5-10 rows back and thus often available), place two or three omnis right at the stage lip peering just over it, spaced appropriately.  Worth a try and you might be surprised at what you get.  Or forget it if not worth the effort an just tell them to place the D50 on the stage at the lip 5 or 6' behind behind the conductor as long as there is enough room there.  A mousepad or square of carpet would be a good idea in that case to damp floor vibration..  and don't forget the potential kick hazzard as the orchestra walks on and off.

[chris319]

Like I suggested run an ORTF config about 6 ft behind the conductor and get the mics up about 8ft above the performance floor.

Thanks for the suggestion but I've already covered that territory with her. It won't fly. She won't allow it. It's exactly how I used to do it at their previous venue but at the new venue no more.

If one stand at that location is too much for them and if you're certain that you can't get a good recording by moving further back then gracefully bow out and leave them to their own devices & consequences.

I've hinted that I may simply tell them "Here's the Sony recorder. Knock yourselves out." and they get what they get.

Some may have heard me say on another board that it's a tragedy that the only record these young musicians have of their performance is so dreadfully bad. That goes extra considering it was their big 10th anniversary concert.

[ScoobieKW]

hanging may cause less stress for the conductor than an onstage stand. (It's the way the professionals do it)

Superclamp, Manfrotto 099b combination is perfect for hanging from the light grid available at most theaters.

[DigiGal]

I've hinted that I may simply tell them "Here's the Sony recorder. Knock yourselves out." and they get what they get.

Some may have heard me say on another board that it's a tragedy that the only record these young musicians have of their performance is so dreadfully bad. That goes extra considering it was their big 10th anniversary concert.

Make that, here's a B&H, Sweetwater, Full Compass, a spare catalog of your choosing, go knock yourselves out.  AKA: No Tools Loaned