Topic: Weird Orchestra Miking

[chris319]

I'll play the contrarian..

Personally I get great results from down low.  I've actually come to prefer it in an excellent sounding room when approached creatively in a number of situations.

That's a refreshing perspective.

Make that, here's a B&H, Sweetwater, Full Compass, a spare catalog of your choosing, go knock yourselves out.  AKA: No Tools Loaned

They are friends and the husband is a co-worker. They have taken the Sony to destinations far and wide -- it has seen much more of the world than I ever will! I'm going to be a good friend and keep loaning it to them when they ask.

[easyed]

Just to provide a concrete example: http://www.jellyinajar.com/2012-03-04NewCenturyChamberOrchestra1stSet_sample.wav
(24 bit, 44.1k, large .wav file 48.8mb 4 min sample)

recorded 5Te41Th, exact center first row, mics were at a height maybe a foot above the floor of the stage.  in other words the floor of the stage was about at my neck level and the mics were about 4 inches higher than my ears

I would have preferred to get my mics higher but had zero flexibility in positioning - had to record from my seat.  I have had virtually no experience recording classical music.  But from what I'd read six feet behind conductor eight feet high is ideal or hung from above, which I understand you can't do for your situation.

decent gear: Beyerdynamic CK930s > Naiant Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10

guess this proves it can be done.  the night before recorded same orchestra with same gear from first row close to center but in a church (musicians love) but I found far too echo-ey

hope this helps.

[chris319]

That recording is a vast improvement over what my friends got with my Sony. It sounds like that hall has not particularly live acoustics.

recorded same orchestra with same gear from first row close to center but in a church (musicians love) but I found far too echo-ey

Not surprising. A lesson in critical distance.

What was the configuration of your CK930's? It probably helped that you used cardioids.

[Gutbucket]

Thanks for the sample Ed, I just downloaded and will give it a listen later tonight.  BTW, your link above has some extra characters in there screwing up the URL.  Here's a corrected link which worked for me for anyone else interested- http://www.jellyinajar.com/2012-03-04NewCenturyChamberOrchestra1stSet_sample.wav

Both are important, yet I still maintain that critical distance is far more important than height.

[Chuck]

After listening twice on Sennheiser HD 280 pro headphones at work...

Not bad at all. Maybe it's the headphones, but I feel like the sound is a bit strident and doesn't have the width of commercial recordings I typically listen to. It also sounds like it was recorded low, rather than above the conductor's position. Which it should since you told us where the mics were positioned. I wish you didn't tell the location you recorded it from, as that may cloud my review.

I've never had the opportunity to record an orchestra.  But, I do enjoy listening to recordings of orchestras made with minimal micing techniques. I'd be happy with this recording especially considering where you placed your microphones.

[easyed]

Ok well here is the same movement from the night before: www.jellyinajar.com/2012-03-03NewCenturyChamberOrchestra1stSet_sample.wav

Same gear, also St34lth, first row, not quite but very close to center.  On the second night was about 15-20 feet from nearest instruments, first night maybe 30 feet.  Both nights vertical height was approximately the same with relation to performers, only distance from stage differed.  But first night much livelier acoustics in the hall.  First night sound is not to my liking but I realize people have different tastes about reverb.   I suspect that people are more used to classical music recordings that have what I consider a lot of ambiance.

This orchestra has no conductor but is led by the first violinist; the group has 20 or so players depending on the piece.

First night venue was First Congregational Church of Berkeley: see a picture here: http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=9Z9&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1680&bih=880&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=zHt9mJaILFsKMM:&imgrefurl=http://ratcliffarch.com/projects/first_congregational&docid=d3869vvGe97MkM&imgurl=http://ratcliffarch.com/content/projects/first_congregational/First_Congregational_1.jpg&w=900&h=500&ei=TFqIULTVJ4Hs8gTzqoDIAg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=336&vpy=305&dur=553&hovh=167&hovw=301&tx=138&ty=84&sig=104526446527607864303&page=1&tbnh=132&tbnw=245&start=0&ndsp=44&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:0,i:99 or do a Google image search.  I was in first row first seat from aisle.

Second night was Osher Marin JCC: see a picture here: http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=kk9&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1680&bih=880&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=eVtRblygO4FOFM:&imgrefurl=http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/4/prweb9376987.htm&docid=lOE3HtNaHj1vmM&imgurl=http://ww1.prweb.com/prfiles/2012/04/05/9376987/hoytt%252520nye.jpg&w=610&h=409&ei=3VyIUJigJ5G09gS02YGQAQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=191&vpy=186&dur=875&hovh=184&hovw=274&tx=119&ty=136&sig=104526446527607864303&page=2&tbnh=132&tbnw=215&start=40&ndsp=51&ved=1t:429,r:37,s:20,i:249 or do a google image search to get an idea what that hall is like


After doing these recordings I thought about seeking out more classical music to record since the tonal quality of those instruments (violins, violas, cellos, basses, etc) was so cool, but am not interested in expending the effort unless the quality of the program and performers is top notch, so for example local university student recitals may not be satisfying to me, who has not listened to classical since high school, although I do listen to mostly acoustic music, ie. no drums or electric guitars.   A new music center just opened at a local university and I went to check it out and they have very nice mics hung from the ceiling but the local symphony has had the same person doing their recordings for over twenty years and I couldn't top his gear: DPA mics (the 402x series ? not the 406x) Millennia Media preamps and Pyramix DAW so I won't be recording them.

[easyed]

That recording is a vast improvement over what my friends got with my Sony. It sounds like that hall has not particularly live acoustics.

recorded same orchestra with same gear from first row close to center but in a church (musicians love) but I found far too echo-ey

Not surprising. A lesson in critical distance.

What was the configuration of your CK930's? It probably helped that you used cardioids.

A/B stereo config, mics about 9 inches apart

[chris319]

Quite a radical difference.

A/B stereo config

What was the spacing and how did you mount them?

I applied some high-shelf EQ to the first recording you posted (the less live one) and it brings out the highs in the violins quite nicely.

am not interested in expending the effort unless the quality of the program and performers is top notch, so for example local university student recitals may not be satisfying to me

I have that going with the youth symphony. Before the conductor became so restrictive about mic placement, I could put mics pretty much where I wanted them (not "st34lth") and the quality of my recording far exceeded the quality of their playing. I remember one violin soloist who had won first place in some kind of competition or shootout or something, and when she played her solo I thought "this kid won first place?" (remember they are mostly high-school students). I used to joke that I would buy a $4,000 Schoeps pair if it would make them sound like the London Symphony. I knew my money was safe

[chris319]

mics about 9 inches apart

That's kind of close for A-B. There is some separation but not a lot. You could experiment with angling them along the lines of ORTF.

[easyed]

Quite a radical difference.

A/B stereo config

What was the spacing and how did you mount them?

They were about 9 inches apart, about 4 inches higher than my ears.  Yes that is closer together than would be ideal but I wasn't taping openly.  More than that I will not tell, as it is my typical st34lth setup.  And for said setup I have not yet figured out a workable way to angle the mics out at all.

[chris319]

Customarily one would use omnis in an A-B setup but the cardioids work to your benefit in halls with dubious acoustics.

[easyed]

Customarily one would use omnis DPA 4061s (grids removed) in an A-B setup but the cardioids work to your benefit in halls with dubious acoustics.

OK here is one I did st34lth with omnis A-B 9 inches apart 4 inches above my ears front row exact center about fifteen feet from performers (DPA 4061s with grids removed and stock windscreens on > Core Sound battery box > PCM-M10) in this case The Turtle Island String Quartet:
www.jellyinajar.com/TISQ 12-10-2010 2nd set Herbst Theatre SF CA sample.wav
file is 59.1 mb, 24 bit, 44.1k, 3 min 54 sec

I didn't like the results I got, too echo-ey.  This was at the Herbst Theatre in SF, CA: http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=zxp&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1680&bih=880&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=RVWriwoZeu2fKM:&imgrefurl=http://david-elliott-lewis.smugmug.com/Competitions/Night-of-the-Stars-CHP/16910313_RnspBQ/1277819686_cGQKgvF&docid=U9jj3ToAW-XQ4M&imgurl=http://david-elliott-lewis.smugmug.com/Competitions/Night-of-the-Stars-CHP/i-cGQKgvF/0/L/IMG4203-L.jpg&w=800&h=534&ei=EmqIULa8LYea9gSZ6YCYBA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=898&vpy=299&dur=3727&hovh=183&hovw=275&tx=110&ty=117&sig=104526446527607864303&page=1&tbnh=136&tbnw=200&start=0&ndsp=38&ved=1t:429,r:11,s:0,i:105

[chris319]

Customarily one would use omnis DPA 4061s (grids removed) in an A-B setup but the cardioids work to your benefit in halls with dubious acoustics.

If you're going to quote me please do so accurately. I didn't specify DPA 4061's. There are many great omnis which one could use in an A-B setup.

I wouldn't use DPA 4061s if a mic with a better S/N spec could be used, particularly in a non-stealth application.

[easyed]

Customarily one would use omnis DPA 4061s (grids removed) in an A-B setup but the cardioids work to your benefit in halls with dubious acoustics.

If you're going to quote me please do so accurately. I didn't specify DPA 4061's. There are many great omnis which one could use in an A-B setup.

I wouldn't use DPA 4061s if a mic with a better S/N spec could be used, particularly in a non-stealth application.

my apologies, i was editing my own post and mistakenly edited part of your quote, sorry

[chris319]

No worries.