Topic: at853/943 (4.7k mod) directly into r09hr and/or tascam dr2d

[red]

I'm looking for some insight as to whether I could plug my sp-cmc-8(4.7k mod) and/or sp-cmc-4 (4.7k mod) directly into my r09hr and/or tascam DR2d.  I've been using battery boxes in between but if it's a possibility it would nice to eliminate the b-box from the chain.  When I record it's almost always loud rock shows.  Any advice would be appreciated (and I know I'll need to test in the field, but before doing so am hoping to get some advice).  Thanks in advance.

[obaaron]

Use the battery box to avoid distortion from high spl's since you are recording loud shows

[red]

thanks obaaron, I've been using b-box w/ very good results, I'm just trying to figure out if there's any way to get by without it, as it adds an extra layer (where something can go awry).

[adrianf74]

Not really.  You run the risk of distortion as already mentioned.

If you've got an older style battery box, there's always the Church Audio Ugly Battery Box which is as small as they come.

[Marshall7]

Better safe than sorry.  Use the battery box.

[darktrain]

I have used the AT853's(4.7k mod) mic in(no battery box) plenty of times with loud rock/metal with the m10, pmd620 and H320 with no issues, the m10 and h320 provide a little over 3v and the pmd620 5v. Not advocating it, just stating my experience that I have had no problems so it can be done with those recorders, the ones you have I haven't tried.

[Gil]

I've run unmodded AT943s into the DR-2d (mic in, low) on PIP and have had no issues, even with some rather loud shows.

[fmaderjr]

I have used the AT853's(4.7k mod) mic in(no battery box) plenty of times with loud rock/metal with the m10, pmd620 and H320 with no issues, the m10 and h320 provide a little over 3v and the pmd620 5v. Not advocating it, just stating my experience that I have had no problems so it can be done with those recorders, the ones you have I haven't tried.

Should work fine with no battery box with the R09HR as well. Both the M10 & R09 HR provide slightly over 3 volts PIP and illconditioned has also reported using the M10 successfully to record loud stuff mic in with 4.7k modded AT853's. I wouldn't record anything critical without a battery box until you've tested the combo on something very loud, but I'm almost positive it will work fine. I've done loud stuff with great results using CA11's > M10 mic in (which illconditioned also says will work fine), but have not tested modded AT853's > R09HR with no box.

[Javier Cinakowski]

the 943's won't distort without a batter box, they don't even need the 4.7k mod...  I've run a pair of 4.7k 943's/AT-ADAPT/853 caps directly into the Sony M10 directly in front of my drum kit and next to a bass cab,  no distortion....  You would have to get so loud that it would be uncomfortable for your ears before those distort...

[red]

Thanks everyone, looks like I'll need to go to a club to do a test.  I've had good results using b-box, but it's another thing in the chain that can cause issues (technical or user error). 

@Javier I did recently have some distortion using 943's w/o the 4.7k mod (but I'm not 100% sure it wasn't a b-box issue), so now I'm only running 4.7k mods (853s and 943) for loud shows.  I remember asking about the mod for 943's awhile back and getting some lively debate.  (one of these days I'll do another club test to see if my non-modded 943's distort, just out of curiosity).

So it sounds like I would use low sensitivity settings, PIP on for both the R09hr and the dr2d (@Porno Gil, have you tried line in on the dr2d, I use the dual record mode on my dr2d).

[Javier Cinakowski]

I guess I'm not surprised they distorted without the 4.7k mod, even though chris church claims they don't need it.  The mod lowers sensitivity and sends a lower signal to the battery box/recorder so it will likely be advantageous to the entire recording chain for loud material.  If you don't plan on doing quiet acoustic stuff the mod can't hurt.  I stand by my point about the 4.7k 943 being damn near unclippable though...  Great set of mics and having owned both 853 and 943 bodies, I like how the 943 sound better...  Good luck and have faith that you don't need the BB...

[red]

I was running 853 w/ mod, 943 w/ mod and 943 w/o mod ... the 943 w/o mod was absolutely disastrous!  Based on this personal experience I'm absolutely sticking w/ the mod.   When I get around to testing w/o the b-box I'll report back. 

[drivingwheel]

I run CA-14 cards with the 4.7mod Mic-in on DR-2D with fine results, even in loud situations; I just usually use the 40hz roll off to keep the bass from distorting.

[darktrain]

I run CA-14 cards with the 4.7mod Mic-in on DR-2D with fine results, even in loud situations; I just usually use the 40hz roll off to keep the bass from distorting.

fYI...rolloff will not prevent distortion

[drivingwheel]

I run CA-14 cards with the 4.7mod Mic-in on DR-2D with fine results, even in loud situations; I just usually use the 40hz roll off to keep the bass from distorting.

fYI...rolloff will not prevent distortion

helps it from being too 'boomy' though

[darktrain]

I run CA-14 cards with the 4.7mod Mic-in on DR-2D with fine results, even in loud situations; I just usually use the 40hz roll off to keep the bass from distorting.

fYI...rolloff will not prevent distortion

helps it from being too 'boomy' though

U can always roll that off in post, its probably one of the easiest filters to use, also boomy is not a issue with small diameter cards, certainly can be with omnis though

[Gil]

Thanks everyone, looks like I'll need to go to a club to do a test.  I've had good results using b-box, but it's another thing in the chain that can cause issues (technical or user error). 

@Javier I did recently have some distortion using 943's w/o the 4.7k mod (but I'm not 100% sure it wasn't a b-box issue), so now I'm only running 4.7k mods (853s and 943) for loud shows.  I remember asking about the mod for 943's awhile back and getting some lively debate.  (one of these days I'll do another club test to see if my non-modded 943's distort, just out of curiosity).

So it sounds like I would use low sensitivity settings, PIP on for both the R09hr and the dr2d (@Porno Gil, have you tried line in on the dr2d, I use the dual record mode on my dr2d).

I frequently use the line in for board feeds in addition to running my mics mic in simply because I can.

[yates7592]

Well FWIW I wouldn't run any mics without a battery box.  For that extra tiny cubic foot of gear it ain't worth trying to cut corners.

[Church-Audio]

These threads keep popping up.

Here is the deal.. I have no idea what someone means by a really loud show.. But I do know with out a proper power supply for my mics with the 4.7k mod I came up with. They will distort at a certain spl level with my mod and with a proper power supply they will handle 114 db at 1k with a THD of less than 0.6% Now unless people want to carry a db meter to measure levels... and make sure they are always in a place where the levels are below say 100db they will never know until its too late. One of the reasons why people like my mics is they can handle very high spl when properly powered.

So if you are using my mics with MY 4.7k mod then you should be using a battery box or one of my preamps with a supply voltage of more than 6 volts. Yeah you can get away with it if the show is not over 100db but that also depends on content of the signal how much bass ect. So please use a battery box or a preamp for my mics.. Or you risk getting into distortion issues.

[yates7592]

These threads keep popping up.

Here is the deal.. I have no idea what someone means by a really loud show.. But I do know with out a proper power supply for my mics with the 4.7k mod I came up with. They will distort at a certain spl level with my mod and with a proper power supply they will handle 114 db at 1k with a THD of less than 0.6% Now unless people want to carry a db meter to measure levels... and make sure they are always in a place where the levels are below say 100db they will never know until its too late. One of the reasons why people like my mics is they can handle very high spl when properly powered.

So if you are using my mics with MY 4.7k mod then you should be using a battery box or one of my preamps with a supply voltage of more than 6 volts. Yeah you can get away with it if the show is not over 100db but that also depends on content of the signal how much bass ect. So please use a battery box or a preamp for my mics.. Or you risk getting into distortion issues.

^^This.
The BB is, say, the size of a box of matches. You gaff tape the 1/8" in plug securely to your deck, put it away, no problems. Why take the risk of screwing a good show?

[2manyrocks]

Just picked up a set of AT853s with the 4.7k mod from another member.  On first impression, these mics have lower noise going through a battery box into a Sony m10.  They work without the battery box, but they seem to do better with the battery box recording off speakers at home.   

[red]

Thanks again everyone . The gaffers tape is a great idea, I'm going to order some (which I've been needing to do anyways).  So it looks like it's maybe possible to run w/o a b-box, but not advisable/optimal.

[obaaron]

If guaranteeing the best possible recording is of no concern then don't use it.  I personally got into this hobby to capture the best possible recording every time which does not allow for"cutting corners".  YMMV

[red]

em, the point of my question was simply to ask a question, not to try to "cut corners" to degrade sound.  I don't tape as frequently as many others here and I'm just trying to learn ... I appreciate everyone's input.   

[obaaron]

Yeah I could have said that better...comes off douchey now that I read it.  Its just not worth the potential risk IMO unless of course its not a loud show

[adrianf74]

Don't run without a battery box.  Even though you might be able to get away with it, that one show -- that's uber special -- will end up with distortion and that'll be that.   A battery box (especially a Church Audio Ugly Battery Box) is the smallest thing in the world to bring with you that it's stupid NOT to. 

[blg]

Don't run without a battery box.  Even though you might be able to get away with it, that one show -- that's uber special -- will end up with distortion and that'll be that.   A battery box (especially a Church Audio Ugly Battery Box) is the smallest thing in the world to bring with you that it's stupid NOT to. 

^ this. I never considered not using a bbox/ugly pre-amp when running ca14s/sp-cmc-8s.  I taped some extremely loud shows with chris' mics and they never distorted and that includes a couple of "head in stack" recordings.