Topic: Edirol R-4: HDD Slow!

[Brian Skalinder]

Virgin run for me with the R-4 tonight taping Goran Ivanovic Group.  Ran a 4 mic mix - 2 x MK4 DIN centerish stage and 2 x 414 omni split left and right.  Intent was mostly to pick up monitors and drums directly as the room and PA was tiny.  No monster stacks to cause vibration or any such thing.  Had the R-4 resting on DPA UA0896 windscreens in my padded gear bag (SoniCase).  All unnecessary BS on the R-4 turned off (no effects, speakers, internal mics, etc.).

R-4 set to record 4 mono channels, 24/48, analog-in, line-in w/ phantom.  I startup my recording.  Within 2-3 min of starting up my R-4 recording - bang! - HDD Slow message.  WTF!  Message splashes across the screen blocking the levels for tracks 1 & 2.  Counter and meter latency increased significantly.  Couldn't find a way to clear the HHD Slow message, so stopped the file and started a new one.  2-3 min in and - bang! - HDD Slow message again.  Again, couldn't clear the message, and since I couldn't see my 1&2 channel meters, I just left the levels where they were (set conservatively since I'm not yet familiar with the unit's gain structure).

Between sets, I tinkered a bit and found I could duplicate the HDD Slow message by simply starting another 4 x mono recording and waiting 2-3 minutes.  Turned off the pre-record feature and tried again - same problem (as expected).  Turned the pre-record back on.  Switched to 2 x stereo files and - voila! - problem solved during between set testing.  Ran 2 x stereo files for the 2nd set and encountered no problems at all.

I've read about rare instances in which others experienced the same thing, but in searching TS found very little info about anyone testing their unit in a variety of configs.  So, a few questions for all you R-4 owners out there:

• How many of you have encountered the HDD Slow message?
• If you have, under what specific circumstances (environment, bag setup, R-4 settings (especially file setup, i.e. 4 x mono, 2 x stereo, etc.), etc.)?
• If you have not, have you run the R-4 in 4 x mono mode?
• And most importantly:  anyone willing to test their R-4 in 4 x mono mode at 24/48 to see if they're able to duplicate my testing?  Only takes me 2-3 min of recording 4 x mono at 24/48, line-in w/ phantom on to duplicate the HDD Slow message every time (so far, 3-4 tests).
  

I'm curious if others experience the same problem in 4 x mono mode.  If it's common and just the nature of the beast, then okay - I can deal with it, easy enough workaround running 2 x stereo.  But if it's not common, then I want to swap out my R-4 with a replacement from the retailer/manufacturer under the assumption it's faulty (as opposed to a design flaw or some such that all units share).

Thanks in advance for any help...

Edit to add:  No idea if the 1st set during which I encountered the HDD Slow message turned out alright or not, despite the message.  I'm still transferring over slow-ass USB1 b/c my computer's old and I don't have a slot free for a USB2 card.  Once I know, I'll update.

Edit to add again:  1st set is trashed - seemingly continuous waveform visually (when zoomed out), but all sorts of skipping going on.  Hmph.

[BayTaynt3d]

I can run a few tests at home tomorrow night (THU). Got to crash right now, and then work tomorrow day, but that seems easy enough to replicate. I'll try 5 minutes of 4xMono and 5 minutes of 2xStereo at 24/48, then I'll do both again at 24/96 for good measure. Maybe someone else can give that a go as well so we can get a few more data points.

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

How many of you have encountered the HDD Slow message?

I haven't got it yet.  Recorded 5 times so far.


If you have not, have you run the R-4 in 4 x mono mode?

Yes I have in fact here's a link...flawless.  http://www.dimeadozen.org/torrents-details.php?id=87507
I'm gonna do it again this Sat. w/ Danny Barnes Collective.

Sounds like you got a bunk unit.  I know Frank at Cascade got about 10 recalled and replaced because of HD issues.  FYI. Did you get yours from Oade?  Seems a lot of people who've had the problem bought from them...

I came to this by messaging folks who had the prob and asking where they bought from. There is another Team Edirol R4 thread somewhere.  Might mean nothing...or they still have some bunk units.

[mmmatt]

Sorry to hear about thisBrian,
I have run 16/44 4@mono but never 24/48.  Mine has fone quite a few shows at 24/96 2@ stereo and I have never yet seen a problem.  Did you like the 2nd set?  How were the boys?

Matt

[Brian Skalinder]

Even with the few responses so far, it appears this is NOT normal behavior.  Not surprised, really.  I contacted Edirol support and spoke with Ted, who apparently previously worked with sleepypedro on his 'HDD Slow' issues previously.  Ted indicated the 'HDD Slow' issue has only afflicted a handful of units out of hundreds sold (who knows if that's true or not) and they have HDs in stock for replacement.

On the up side, very few hoops to jump through - give name, addy, phone, serial #, get my warranty issue # and RMA #, and off we go.  On the down side, not surprisingly, it's a slow process to deliver shipping label to me, ship R4 to Edirol, ship R4 back to me.  But that's not unexpected.  We'll see how it goes...

[sleepypedro]

Even with the few responses so far, it appears this is NOT normal behavior.  Not surprised, really.  I contacted Edirol support and spoke with Ted, who apparently previously worked with sleepypedro on his 'HDD Slow' issues previously.  Ted indicated the 'HDD Slow' issue has only afflicted a handful of units out of hundreds sold (who knows if that's true or not) and they have HDs in stock for replacement.

the entire time i spoke with ted in a support capacity, he was doubting the HDD SLOW error was truly a problem.  because i couldn't replicate it in a clean environment (read:  without vibration), it wasn't officially an issue as far as he was concerned.  only reason mine got RMA'ed was because of a completely unrelated LCD issue.  but god bless them for acknowledging the HD issue now -- i'd like to hope they did thorough forensics on mine once they had it in hand and then realized there really was a HD or HD controller issue.

note:  i've only used the second R4 for one outdoor festival.  no issues despite some heavy bass thump (oh how i love the Brazilian Girls), but then again i never had issues with the previous unit outdoors either.

[Brian Skalinder]

the entire time i spoke with ted in a support capacity, he was doubting the HDD SLOW error was truly a problem.  because i couldn't replicate it in a clean environment (read:  without vibration), it wasn't officially an issue as far as he was concerned.

Thanks to you (and any others) for blazing the path for me.    Ted didn't even ask me to format the drive, run a scan/check, or anything - took me at my word that it was a problem, said they had HDDs in stock for replacement, and that was that.  Definitely glad they seem to have officialy acknowledged the issue.

[Roving Sign]

Brian - I have to ask - and forgive me if this is addressed somewhere else...

But what is the deal with 4 mono tracks? What is the advantage? (I assume there is one)

How do you put it all together?

Curiosity is getting the best of me...

[mmmatt]

Brian - I have to ask - and forgive me if this is addressed somewhere else...

But what is the deal with 4 mono tracks? What is the advantage? (I assume there is one)

How do you put it all together?

Curiosity is getting the best of me...

I prefer mixing mono tracks so I an add effects to one side if I choose.  Different software handles these things differently though.  Other advantage is less splits.  Here again a software thing.  The splits truly are seamless (audibly anyways), but they have to be manually aligned with the software I have. (traction and cubase)

As for the slow hd thing... if you saw how well shockmounted that drive is you would not believe the vibration theroy.  I'm no expert, but vibration is very well accounted for imo, where as laptops have no shock mounting.

Brian, I'm currious what your serial number is.  I think that is going to be the link... I bet there was a run of them with HD problems.  I would also be curious of the brand/model of the HD.  I wonder if they used multiple suppliers.

Matt

[Chanher]

so matt, since you swapped out your HD, have you had any problems? Were you getting HD Slow errors before the swap?

[BayTaynt3d]

Here's an example for the guy...

Scenario: Jazz quartet...

Option A: You're running two stereo pairs, say split omni's and XY Cards. Then it probably makes sense to run as 2xStereo because you'll likely to edit them that way in post. But...

Option B: Maybe you instead mic each person/instrument seperately. Place one card in front of the bass player, one in front of the keyboard amp, etc. Then in post, you really have 4 different tracks you're dealing with, and you'll mix them all in a little differently.

Anyway, that's just one example. Sometimes even with a stereo pair, it's nice to work on each channel sperately. Like if you need to boost the levels of only one side. Do you pan it to that side? A big no-no if that mixes the signals in some cases. Better to just boost the one channel and not do any mixing at all. And so on...

[Chanher]

Here's an example for the guy...

Scenario: Jazz quartet...

Option A: You're running two stereo pairs, say split omni's and XY Cards. Then it probably makes sense to run as 2xStereo because you'll likely to edit them that way in post. But...

Option B: Maybe you instead mic each person/instrument seperately. Place one card in front of the bass player, one in front of the keyboard amp, etc. Then in post, you really have 4 different tracks you're dealing with, and you'll mix them all in a little differently.

Anyway, that's just one example. Sometimes even with a stereo pair, it's nice to work on each channel sperately. Like if you need to boost the levels of only one side. Do you pan it to that side? A big no-no if that mixes the signals in some cases. Better to just boost the one channel and not do any mixing at all. And so on...

I did option B for a jazz quartet, I had four tracks to work with so I put a mic on each instrument. It turned out REALLY nice, I almost felt overwhelmed in the post, so many options. I think I ended up putting some reverb on the drums and sax, EQ on the bass, I messed with some compression for each track, then of course different degrees of panning for each track, it wasn't true stereo but it sounded like it.   I just liked the fact that it sounded very pleasant on a car stereo or your home theater, although I couldn't bring out the bass in the mix on the car stereo, if I knew more about EQing I probably could've got it...

[mmmatt]

so matt, since you swapped out your HD, have you had any problems? Were you getting HD Slow errors before the swap?

I never had the hdd slow problem.  I like to mix the files while using the r4 as an external drive.  Then when all is done I go straight to DVD for backup.  That drive is slow when opening into the daw, transfering, or flacing.  Now it rocks, and it is a bit bigger!

Agreed Tainted on your a's and b's.  Def good points.  Unless it is 2 track, I prefer mono files because my options are wide open, but all that said, it is not the end of the world to use stereo files either.

Matt

[BayTaynt3d]

so matt, since you swapped out your HD, have you had any problems? Were you getting HD Slow errors before the swap?

I never had the hdd slow problem.  I like to mix the files while using the r4 as an external drive.  Then when all is done I go straight to DVD for backup.  That drive is slow when opening into the daw, transfering, or flacing.  Now it rocks, and it is a bit bigger!

Agreed Tainted on your a's and b's.  Def good points.  Unless it is 2 track, I prefer mono files because my options are wide open, but all that said, it is not the end of the world to use stereo files either.

Matt

Yeah, I know in SF I could select the L channel, press CRTL-N to create new sound file, paste in the one channel, and save as mono in about 10 seconds (not including the save time). If you really wanted four monos, doing it that way wouldn't take that long, but it is no doubt an extra step in the workflow and with huge files, it might add up.

I can't freakin' wait to run my first 4-channel. I've got three opportunities coming up in the next ten days. The first is on Sunday, but I don't have my new mic stands or shockmounts yet. So, we'll see if I can use something from the performers. Otherwise, I'll just run a third mic in the middle of my normal stand (probably one extra omni). I should be getting two new on stage collapsable tripod stands with telescoping booms ($34 each from B&H), a couple of new shockmounts, and a couple of cheesy little mic clamps (to have the option of clamping the extra mics to other mic stands or sheet music stands, which I think I'll be able to do frequently with the suff I record) on Monday, and then I'll be ready to go for sure! 

But, I just realized writing that in this thread must be depressing for Brian, I should have posted in Team R4. Sorry, Bri, +T for your troubles, and crossing my fingers that I don't get that error...

[BayTaynt3d]

Brian: Just recorded 4xMono at 24/48 for five minutes using mic-in no problem. I know you said line-in, but I can't imagine that changing anything, it's just a pad right?

[phanophish]

I've run about 5 shows now, all were running 2 stereo channels at 24/96.  Not even a hiccup.  I've never run 4 mono so can't speak to that, but from a HD bandwidth standpoint it should be the same. 

[zowie]

Ted indicated the 'HDD Slow' issue has only afflicted a handful of units out of hundreds sold (who knows if that's true or not) and they have HDs in stock for replacement.

Pretty lousy sales if true.

[Brian Skalinder]

Update.  My R-4 has sat with Edirol tech support for 4 days now.  I called to check on status since I was told it would only take a day or two to turn it around.  In talking with support, they indicated they could not duplicate the problem.  I asked them how, exactly, they were testing.  The said 4 channels of 24/96.  Okay, never mind I reported the problem occurred when running 24/48.  And in what format, I asked.  2 x stereo.

The support rep, Chris, indicated I must be using it in a vibration-heavy environment. 

I specifically stated at least half a dozen times in previous calls that the problem only occurs when running 4 x mono, and that it occurs in a zero-vibration environment (my home office, recording dead air).  From here on out, I speak only with Ted at support, since he's the only one with whom I've spoken to actually comprehend the problem.  (Anyone out there experiencing tech problems, I recommend doing the same - I think there are only 2 of 'em in the R-4 tech support group.)

Frustrating...   

[Brian Skalinder]

Edirol support has redeemed themselves.  Chris called me back after duplicating the error immediately upon running 4 x mono.  He said he doesn't want to bother fixing this one, that they'll simply send me a brand new unit instead (brand spankin' new, not previously refurbed - I asked to make sure).

Fingers crossed the new one exhibits no problems...

[thegreatgumbino]

Edirol support has redeemed themselves.  Chris called me back after duplicating the error immediately upon running 4 x mono.  He said he doesn't want to bother fixing this one, that they'll simply send me a brand new unit instead (brand spankin' new, not previously refurbed - I asked to make sure).

Fingers crossed the new one exhibits no problems...

Great news, Brian.  +T

I'm sure you've already thought about this, but you might make sure that Doug's aware of the situation.  I'd hate to see him refuse to mod it since it's a different unit than the one he sold you.

[Brian Skalinder]

I'm sure you've already thought about this, but you might make sure that Doug's aware of the situation.  I'd hate to see him refuse to mod it since it's a different unit than the one he sold you.

Yup, just fired off an email to Doug letting him know the situation and asking for confirmation it won't pose any problems for my future T-mod.  I can't imagine it'll pose a problem.  Once the new unit arrives, I'll make sure Doug has both the old and new serial #s as reference.

[mmmatt]

have others who have had problems with this unit experienced this problem with 24/48 x4 mono specifically?  I don't think I have ever run mine that way, allthough I have run 16bit 4x mono and never had a problem.

Matt

[Brian Skalinder]

have others who have had problems with this unit experienced this problem with 24/48 x4 mono specifically?  I don't think I have ever run mine that way, allthough I have run 16bit 4x mono and never had a problem.

I think a couple people in the Team R-4 thread tested briefly and indicated no problems.  If the problem I experienced is simply the nature of the beast, it should be easy enough for anyone to test.  Simply run the R-4 in 4 x mono mode at 24/48 and in short order (1-3 minutes for me) you'll get the HDD Slow! error.  Edirol tech support did not think this was normal behavior, so I don't think it's the nature of the beast.

[mmmatt]

have others who have had problems with this unit experienced this problem with 24/48 x4 mono specifically?  I don't think I have ever run mine that way, allthough I have run 16bit 4x mono and never had a problem.

I think a couple people in the Team R-4 thread tested briefly and indicated no problems.  If the problem I experienced is simply the nature of the beast, it should be easy enough for anyone to test.  Simply run the R-4 in 4 x mono mode at 24/48 and in short order (1-3 minutes for me) you'll get the HDD Slow! error.  Edirol tech support did not think this was normal behavior, so I don't think it's the nature of the beast.

Just seems odd if other's have had the problem but not in the same scenario as you.  I will test mine tonight, but with the new drive it won't be an acurate test.

Matt

[sleepypedro]

problem not reproducible here, fyi.  i'm 7 minutes in, about to give up.

FWIW i *did* have the problem with this unit -- my second -- the other night while recording some ridiculously loud heavy metal thing (opening set for dinosaur jr.)  i'm not sweating that, as the floor was vibrating pretty hard... and it was also nothing i ever had to hear again.  no issues after padding the bag a little better -- but the next two bands also weren't as loud    

[BayTaynt3d]

Just for the record, we're talking WAV not BWF at 4xMono right?

Also, I was one of the people who testing this, although I only ran for 5 minutes, but Bri said that was all I needed for him to reproduce.

[Brian Skalinder]

Just for the record, we're talking WAV not BWF at 4xMono right?

Yes, 4 x mono WAV.

[Brian Skalinder]

Woohoo!!  Got a brand spankin' new R-4 in my hands.  Testing now...hopefully it will perform well.

[BayTaynt3d]

I love this thing more and more every time I use it. I've pulled more matrixes (matricies? LOL!) in the past three weeks than I did in the previous six months combined. Maybe it's not the cleanest, but it sounds plenty good to me, and it's a joy to run. Last night I had my first chance to take some of the advice laid out in the TS Matrix Guide... I got permission to use the house snakes to run my omnis back to the SBD, so I could nab 4 channels (AUD+SBD) back at the board. Fun times...

[sleepypedro]

Woohoo!!  Got a brand spankin' new R-4 in my hands.  Testing now...hopefully it will perform well.

any results yet, brian?

[Brian Skalinder]

Woohoo!!  Got a brand spankin' new R-4 in my hands.  Testing now...hopefully it will perform well.

any results yet, brian?

Only tested recording a quiet room so far, and no problems yet.  Today will crank up some sound, though with my current playback system I can't approach concert levels.  But if I stack the R4 on top of the speaker I hopefully can get at least a little vibration into the test.  Real test will be tonight and/or tomorrow night at Greyboy Allstars.  I'm bringing my V3 > MT to run as a backup just in case (MT as a backup, I bet a good number of people would find that humorous!  Fortunately mine's been solid.)

[Brian Skalinder]

Alright, two successful outings with the new R-4.  One Fri night, 2-ch stereo only.  One last night, 2 x stereo at 24/48, plenty of bass in the room.  No problems.  I'm considering this problem solved. 

[BayTaynt3d]

No problems.  I'm considering this problem solved. 

Thank God! 

[sleepypedro]

No problems.  I'm considering this problem solved. 

Thank God! 

great to hear, though if i were you i'd still keep it nice and padded in the rig bag.

[Brian Skalinder]

great to hear, though if i were you i'd still keep it nice and padded in the rig bag.

Oh yes, you better believe it.  Sure can't hurt.

[BayTaynt3d]

Just wanted to post an update here. For starters, I've never had the HHD Slow error, but it's worth noting that I ran my R4 literally sitting on top of a sub two nights ago without a hitch. Combine that with what others have said after opening the unit up about the really nice shockmounting of the hard drive, and I think that really drives home that if you get a good unit, this is simply a non-issue.