Topic: lets pretend its the late 80's for a sec

[shhhshhh]

alright, long story short is that i wanna tape a show in april yet i have absolutely nothing to spend on recording gear.
now, i'm not really a newbie when it comes to basic taping. i've used my mp3 player (awful quality if you're anywhere near the stage) to record shows before, but this one im planning to go to is a special show for me and i want it taped in better quality. since my budget is virtually nothing, all i have to use is a Coby CX-R60 cassette recorder and a Sony ECM-MS907 mic. its quite a hulking set of gear, but it can be stealthed in (which i'll need to do).

now here's my problem, how do i get this mic to sound somewhat decent at a full-on metal show at an arena on just this cheap-o tape recorder? i cant afford anything better until after the show, so im kinda stuck.

[bugg100]

Practice, practice, practice.... Oh Yeah, and post location, be real nice here and ask if any taper has interest in taping the show as well.  Then you got the best you could and maybe also scored a potentially sweet pull with a little help.

Offering to buy beers helps on the other taper part!

[shhhshhh]

Offering to buy beers helps on the other taper part!

haha! i'll have to remember that. 

here's a bit more information if it helps:
ive used this mic on both my laptop and the cassette recorder for recording band practices. while the laptop comes out much clearer (and in stereo), the sound is somewhat distorted. the same thing on my cassette recorder sounds muddy, but it doesn't distort as easily (although i think both the cassette recorder and mic have some built in gain boost or something which ain't good at all).
now, i have GA tickets (not much of a choice), so should i be standing near the back by the soundboard? i've recorded a metal show once before at the Fillmore in SF on my mp3 player just for the hell of it and it sounded somewhat decent standing back by the soundboard.

finally, the last big question is where should i put the mic during the show for best sound quality? obviously i cant wave it around, but it has a 180 and 90 degree switching option on it so maybe that'll give me some more options on where to stand and how to hold it.

[sunjan]

alright, long story short is that i wanna tape a show in april yet i have absolutely nothing to spend on recording gear.
now, i'm not really a newbie when it comes to basic taping. i've used my mp3 player (awful quality if you're anywhere near the stage) to record shows before, but this one im planning to go to is a special show for me and i want it taped in better quality. since my budget is virtually nothing, all i have to use is a Coby CX-R60 cassette recorder and a Sony ECM-MS907 mic. its quite a hulking set of gear, but it can be stealthed in (which i'll need to do).

Is this the recorder you're using?
http://www.millionbuy.com/cbycxr60.html

If I understand it correctly, this is not even standard cassette, but answering machine type microcassette? No wonder the recording comes out muddy...
If you can just save $20 or so, there are plenty of stealthable MD recorders on ebay that sell for less than that!
Or try to loan some gear?! Like others said, post the location, perhaps there are other TS'ers willing to part with their recorder for a day.

When it comes to placement, FOB should be fine, I did that lots of times with my old Sony ECM handheld. You don't need a stand, just hold it in front of you discreetly, wear a black jacket unzipped to conceal it.

Good luck, and +T for making the effort,

/Jan

[shaggy]

that ECM-MS907 will work fine upto a point and is a great mic if you are in smaller venues (not arenas).  I would not go right up next to a PA stack with it.  Here is a tip: draw an equilateral triangle, the two speakers define one side, you and the speakers define the other sides; this is where you want to be ideally.  The main problem is your recorder and the mic is secondary (you need a mic that can handle high SPL).  You need a recorder with half decent mic or line-in op-amps to handle the high SPL transients (you are probably gonna need only line-in if you are doing metal/loud-ass rock).  I would go and get an MD or HiMD.  MDs recorders are super cheap now.  HiMDs will be shortly as soon as everyone gets a flash recorder.  I have had experience with the SR60 from Sharp and the thing is pretty decent, adjustable record levels on the fly (not all MD portables have this feature).  Mini Disc users are a strong community and have their own website for discussing the finer points about using MD as a means to record concerts.  Try their forum....

http://www.minidisc.org/index.php

Meanwhile, here is a dirt cheap SR60 on ebay....ships anywhere in the world!  I'd throw $25-35 at that including shipping.  If you can't afford that, then borrow one from a friend.  Make sure you can adjust the levels WHILE you are recording.  Check the minidsc site for models that can do that.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360012712338

Do you know anyone with a iRiver H120/H320 or Archos Gemini MP3 player?  You use those with a improved OS/firmware called rockbox (click on link below).  Those recorders can make decent recordings with a mic like the MS907.
 
One last thing, You can put the mic anywhere but ideally, no obstructions in front.  Got a straw cowboy hat?  Probably not the best thing to wear at a metal show, I'd stick that MS907 in there somehow.

Good luck and tell us how you did....

[anarkust]

Got a straw cowboy hat?  Probably not the best thing to wear at a metal show

I take serious offense to that comment.  I wear my cowboy hat everywhere I go, whether country music or hard, heavy, death or punk rock. Just yesterday I was taping and this hot yung thing started calling me dimebag because of the hat, of course it could have been the hat coupled with my ass-length hair.  She called me that a few times during the night.  Anyways the hat works good at shows...not gonna say how and for what, but you may get the idea.

Gabriel

[shhhshhh]

that ECM-MS907 will work fine upto a point and is a great mic if you are in smaller venues (not arenas).  I would not go right up next to a PA stack with it.  Here is a tip: draw an equilateral triangle, the two speakers define one side, you and the speakers define the other sides; this is where you want to be ideally.  The main problem is your recorder and the mic is secondary (you need a mic that can handle high SPL).  You need a recorder with half decent mic or line-in op-amps to handle the high SPL transients (you are probably gonna need only line-in if you are doing metal/loud-ass rock).  I would go and get an MD or HiMD.  MDs recorders are super cheap now.  HiMDs will be shortly as soon as everyone gets a flash recorder.  I have had experience with the SR60 from Sharp and the thing is pretty decent, adjustable record levels on the fly (not all MD portables have this feature).  Mini Disc users are a strong community and have their own website for discussing the finer points about using MD as a means to record concerts.  Try their forum....

http://www.minidisc.org/index.php

Meanwhile, here is a dirt cheap SR60 on ebay....ships anywhere in the world!  I'd throw $25-35 at that including shipping.  If you can't afford that, then borrow one from a friend.  Make sure you can adjust the levels WHILE you are recording.  Check the minidsc site for models that can do that.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360012712338

Do you know anyone with a iRiver H120/H320 or Archos Gemini MP3 player?  You use those with a improved OS/firmware called rockbox (click on link below).  Those recorders can make decent recordings with a mic like the MS907.
 
One last thing, You can put the mic anywhere but ideally, no obstructions in front.  Got a straw cowboy hat?  Probably not the best thing to wear at a metal show, I'd stick that MS907 in there somehow.

Good luck and tell us how you did....

thank you for the incredibly helpful info! im now currently watching that auction and i'll snag it if the price doesn't go above what i can spend at the moment (which is around $50 at most). im still a high school student so i dont have the best cash flow at the moment. but hey, it just makes stealthing easier because of age.

here's a mic question: the ECM-MS907 has a switch for either 90 degrees or 180 degrees on it. i assume this is for which direction microphones it uses (it appears to have a pair on each side and a pair at the top). which of these is preferable for an arena concert? my only real fear are those ultra low bass frequencies that plague these louder shows. any way to reduce those without bass roll-off? i would assume standing as far back as possible would reduce them, right?

[Roving Sign]

Probably best to keep the switch at 90...

The mic is actually a mid-side setup - 2 capsules  - one facing forward, one figure 8

Not a low end coming form that mic - The bass rolls off around 100hz - so the natural roll-off serve you well...

[shaggy]

Yep, loud arena rock with a single point ECM....you are gonna have to back up a little.  One of the better things to remember is that the sound is best near the SBD since the guy at the mixing console is mixing it to his taste at his position.

90 degrees, stand just front of the SBD if it is really loud, if not so loud move up closer to a point 1/2 to 2/3 the distance between the SBD and the stage.  Ideally in the center.  The MS907 has a natural roll off at about 150Hz, do not worry about that.  The mic overloading is a result of the design, the fact it takes a single AA (right?) to power it which doesn't allow it to handle transients well in excess of 115dB.  You need 5V at least in a powered mic to get it to handle instense kick-drums or overbearing bass.

As for the SR60, it is just a suggestion.  You can pick up a SONY much easier and probably for cheap as well....

http://www.minidisc.org/sony_mzr97500_comparison.html

Look at the adjust levels during recording row....even if you select one that DOESN'T do that, you could always dial in the level during the warm-up act.

Also, borrow one.  These things are laying around everywhere gathering dust.

[willyp523]

<<thank you for the incredibly helpful info! im now currently watching that auction and i'll snag it if the price doesn't go above what i can spend at the moment (which is around $50 at most). im still a high school student so i dont have the best cash flow at the moment.>>


Hey, how 'bout this...I have a MD just laying around unused.  Send me $15 to cover shipping and my time and you can have it.  It's a Sharp DR7 model with on the fly level adjustment.  You can read up on it here...

http://tinyurl.com/2nw9yx

I have the blue one.  I love this unit...if the format weren't so frowned upon, I might still be using it.  I've pulled some stunning recordings with this thing, a couple have gone silver.

Here's a sample my son recorded last year (the last time it was used) with Church cards and a simple Sound Pro battery box...
http://tinyurl.com/2evy76

Battery life is excellent on this unit.  I'll include the charging cradle and a few blank MDs to get you started.     Plug the mic in and you're ready to go.  Not sure if I still have the owner's manual.

Will

[anarkust]

+T Willy for going beyond the call of duty.

I'm curious...what band is it anyway?  Don't have to say where or when, just who.

Gabriel

[shaggy]

willyp523 is one helluva kind soul!  That DR7 is the best that Sharp ever made for the MD format.  Teurist, jump all over that! 

+T willyp

[willyp523]

+T Willy for going beyond the call of duty.

I'm curious...what band is it anyway?  Don't have to say where or when, just who.

Gabriel

John Mayer, Van Andel Arena, Grand Rapids, MI.  It's at Dime
http://tinyurl.com/2njmdk


edit...sorry if the question wasn't directed to me.  I thought you were asking about the sample

[shhhshhh]

+T Willy for going beyond the call of duty.

I'm curious...what band is it anyway?  Don't have to say where or when, just who.

Gabriel

its several bands actually, Taste Of Chaos tour. i want to hopefully get recordings of D'espairsRay, MUCC and Bullet For My Valentine. possibly Avenged Sevenfold if circumstances allow it.

also, PM sent to willyp523. thanks for the incredible offer!

[stevetoney]

If I have to pretend it's the 80's, that would mean that I'd be back married to my ex-wife...which I can't stomach the thought of...so I'm unable to answer your question. 

[itook2much]

but hey, it just makes stealthing easier because of age.

Don't count on that, young buck.  A search on the way in isn't for recording equipment, it's for contraband such as booze & weapons...which they'll more likely expect from the younger end of the crowd.

For standing in the same spot with an aching neck for hours, well, you may have the advantage there.

[shhhshhh]

but hey, it just makes stealthing easier because of age.

Don't count on that, young buck.  A search on the way in isn't for recording equipment, it's for contraband such as booze & weapons...which they'll more likely expect from the younger end of the crowd.

For standing in the same spot with an aching neck for hours, well, you may have the advantage there.

ahh, very true. but it seems like every show i go to i either get the security guy who hates his job or they just dont care. at the shoreline amphitheater, me and a friend could have walked in with a laptop. no pat downs, no nothing. i know that'll most likely be different at a place like the san jose event center, but im not expecting any ridiculously hard. i can probably hide a recorder in my shoe with no prob.

nah, aching necks are no big deal, its the aching feet! 

[stevetoney]

nah, aching necks are no big deal, its the aching feet! 

Me hates the full bladder!

[Josephine]

Back in the 80's . . .  man, I had some really big hair. 

[shhhshhh]

Back in the 80's . . .  man, I had some really big hair. 

didn't everybody?

[willyp523]

Back in the 80's . . .  man, I had some really big hair. 

Back in the 80's...I had *some* hair 

[wklitz]

ahh, very true. but it seems like every show i go to i either get the security guy who hates his job or they just dont care. at the shoreline amphitheater, me and a friend could have walked in with a laptop. no pat downs, no nothing. i know that'll most likely be different at a place like the san jose event center, but im not expecting any ridiculously hard. i can probably hide a recorder in my shoe with no prob.

nah, aching necks are no big deal, its the aching feet! 

I went to Shoreline for the Eagles in 1994 with My Sony TCD-D10PROII wrapped in a blanket.  Security asked me to shake out the blanket to make sure I wasn't hiding anything inside.  I pulled the D10 out and was about to turn around when the guy was like, "Is That a TV? you're allowed to bring that in."

[shhhshhh]

ahh, very true. but it seems like every show i go to i either get the security guy who hates his job or they just dont care. at the shoreline amphitheater, me and a friend could have walked in with a laptop. no pat downs, no nothing. i know that'll most likely be different at a place like the san jose event center, but im not expecting any ridiculously hard. i can probably hide a recorder in my shoe with no prob.

nah, aching necks are no big deal, its the aching feet! 

I went to Shoreline for the Eagles in 1994 with My Sony TCD-D10PROII wrapped in a blanket.  Security asked me to shake out the blanket to make sure I wasn't hiding anything inside.  I pulled the D10 out and was about to turn around when the guy was like, "Is That a TV? you're allowed to bring that in."

a TV? wow, thats just insane. it looks nothing like one.
i knew security there was pretty bad, but i didn't know it was that bad!

alright, so an update here. i received the MD recorder from Will a few days ago and i decided to take it to a local show to test it out. aside from recording in LP4 mode (ouch, quality took a hit there) and poor microphone placement, it came out pretty decent. here's a sample of one of the bands i recorded:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/rhbn1i

the place also had horrible acoustics, so that had to be taken into account as well. the only thing i have to complain about it is poor stereo separation which i blame on mic placement. the levels were also kind of low because i was afraid of getting tons of distortion, but now i realize i probably could have had them a bit higher (because when they were, it sounded much better).

[aaronji]

A tip of the hat to Will!  Nice to see such kindness still exists...T for ya', Will!

And Teruist: glad your venture into the taperssection is turning out well!

[Roving Sign]

aside from recording in LP4 mode (ouch, quality took a hit there) and poor microphone placement, it came out pretty decent...the only thing i have to complain about it is poor stereo separation which i blame on mic placement.

Might have as much to do with the LP4 Mode's joint-stereo coding...

http://www.minidisc.org/mdlpfaq.html#_q70

[shhhshhh]

aside from recording in LP4 mode (ouch, quality took a hit there) and poor microphone placement, it came out pretty decent...the only thing i have to complain about it is poor stereo separation which i blame on mic placement.

Might have as much to do with the LP4 Mode's joint-stereo coding...

http://www.minidisc.org/mdlpfaq.html#_q70

even more reason not to use LP4 ever again. im using LP2 now and it has much better sound. SP is cutting it close for me because i usually record shows with lots of bands and ive already despised carrying more than 2 minidiscs with me everywhere. i thought LP4 would be nice because of the huge amount of data that can be crammed onto one MD, but it was too much of a quality sacrifice. LP2 is definitely the way to go for what i want to use it for.