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Author Topic: All About Ambisonics  (Read 5988 times)

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Offline kuba e

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Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2023, 09:59:44 AM »
Wforwumbo, thank you for the link to the recording (phish.in/2019-08-31). The recording sounds superb. I am very curious how you edited the coincident pair and the spaced pair in post. This could be an inspiration for anyone who has an ambisonic mic. But if you think it doesn't fit here, I'm happy to send you a pm.

Gutbucket, thank you for great explanation.

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

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Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2023, 10:49:41 PM »
Here's a recording of a ~50-voice community choir. It was recorded with two second-order ambisonic microphones, a top-tier mic pre, a 32-bit/96 kS digital recorder in a good-sounding room:

https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZQxCoVZtkMLzou91OFRtBt4qiBz7h4wtXr7

The two microphones were spaced 14 cm.

In post-production, after experimentation to reproduce the spatials optimally, the two mics were decoded to three first-order hypercardioids angled at -65, 0 and +65 degrees. (The left mic was decoded to two virtual microphones.)
Len Moskowitz
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Offline kuba e

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Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2023, 01:16:44 PM »
Len, it is very nice recording. Please, what configuration was the stereo track created from? Right channel hypercardiod -65 and left channel a mix of two hypercardiods 0 and +65?

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

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Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2023, 02:54:28 PM »
Len, it is very nice recording. Please, what configuration was the stereo track created from? Right channel hypercardiod -65 and left channel a mix of two hypercardiods 0 and +65?

The left second-order ambisonic microphone was decoded to a first-order hypercardioid and rotated left 65 degrees. That same mic was also decoded to a first-order hypercardioid facing forward at 0 degrees.

The right second-order ambisonic microphone was decoded to a first-order hypercardioid and rotated right 65 degrees.

And the entire recordings was first rotated left five degrees to correct for the slightly right-off-center location of the mic stand.
Len Moskowitz
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Offline kuba e

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Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2023, 12:27:59 AM »
Mixing coincident hypercardiods 0deg and 65deg will result in a less directional pattern, e.g. "supercardiod". So is this stereo recording hypercardiod and "supercardiod" spaced 14cm? Have you tried comparing it with a stereo pair of two hypercardiods spaced 14cm panned to the same acoustic center and with an equally wide stereo image? That might be interesting to hear.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2023, 12:40:05 AM by kuba e »

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

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Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2023, 08:44:40 AM »
Mixing coincident hypercardiods 0deg and 65deg will result in a less directional pattern, e.g. "supercardiod". So is this stereo recording hypercardiod and "supercardiod" spaced 14cm? Have you tried comparing it with a stereo pair of two hypercardiods spaced 14cm panned to the same acoustic center and with an equally wide stereo image? That might be interesting to hear.

They're independent virtual microphone decodes, so the polar patterns patterns are preserved. All three virtual microphones are really hypercardioids.

The left hypercardioid is only used in the left playback channel. The center virtual mic is mixed into both left and right channels. The right hypercardioid is used only in the right channel.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2023, 08:46:19 AM by Len Moskowitz (Core Sound) »
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Offline kuba e

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Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2023, 10:35:23 AM »
Yes, these are virtual hypercardios. But you mix them together. And here the mid/side principle applies. If you simply decode the ambisonic recording into left and right microphone with a slightly less directional pattern and with a smaller angle (the exact values depends on how much you mixed in the center microphone at 0 deg), you would get the same result. Even a little better result, because you avoid phase combing in the right channel, where are mixed two near spaced microphones.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2023, 10:39:25 AM by kuba e »

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

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Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2023, 07:53:47 PM »
If you combine the two hypercardioids in the left channel - one pointed left 65 degrees and one pointed straight ahead at 0 degrees - you don't get a supercardioid.

The same holds for the right channel.

The spacing between right and left gives the decorrelated spaciousness. The three hypercardioids give the spatial precision and accuracy.
Len Moskowitz
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Offline roffels

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Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2023, 12:15:05 PM »
I haven't seen any tapes from a Rode Sound field mic yet. I took it out for a run last night, on stage lip. https://soundcloud.com/roffels/ambisonic-test?si=0bcc5385a4f646bfac200687a7101cab&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

I think it sounds really nice. I get multitracks at this venue, but for this set, honestly I think the stage capture is perfectly fine on it's own. I'm looking forward to trying it FOB as well, hopefully doing a shoot out with my Neumann km140 pair to see if this can be my go-to mic

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

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Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2023, 12:38:43 PM »
I haven't seen any tapes from a Rode Sound field mic yet. I took it out for a run last night, on stage lip. https://soundcloud.com/roffels/ambisonic-test?si=0bcc5385a4f646bfac200687a7101cab&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

What mic arrangement did you decode it to?
Len Moskowitz
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Offline roffels

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Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2023, 04:48:21 PM »
I haven't seen any tapes from a Rode Sound field mic yet. I took it out for a run last night, on stage lip. https://soundcloud.com/roffels/ambisonic-test?si=0bcc5385a4f646bfac200687a7101cab&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

What mic arrangement did you decode it to?

120 degrees cardioid I believe. The artists were all off center of the stage, in a traditional ortf arrangement or Healy, it would have been a left-heavy recording so being able to orient the mics in post was handy.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2023, 04:50:02 PM by roffels »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2023, 06:51:19 PM »
Len, it is very nice recording. Please, what configuration was the stereo track created from? Right channel hypercardiod -65 and left channel a mix of two hypercardiods 0 and +65?
The left second-order ambisonic microphone was decoded to a first-order hypercardioid and rotated left 65 degrees. That same mic was also decoded to a first-order hypercardioid facing forward at 0 degrees.

The right second-order ambisonic microphone was decoded to a first-order hypercardioid and rotated right 65 degrees.

And the entire recordings was first rotated left five degrees to correct for the slightly right-off-center location of the mic stand.
Mixing coincident hypercardiods 0deg and 65deg will result in a less directional pattern, e.g. "supercardiod". So is this stereo recording hypercardiod and "supercardiod" spaced 14cm? Have you tried comparing it with a stereo pair of two hypercardiods spaced 14cm panned to the same acoustic center and with an equally wide stereo image? That might be interesting to hear.

Kuba- Your thinking that the left stereo channel consists of a virtual pattern shaped something like a cardioid or supercardioid is along the correct lines.  However, depending on how it was mixed, the right stereo channel is likely something altogether different and far more complex.

Lets walk through it..
In this situation we have two physical, near-spaced ambisonic microphones (lets call them: mL, mR), from which three virtual microphone channels are being derived (vLl, vLc, vRr), which are being mixed down to a two-channel stereo output (Lt, Rt). I'll ignore the 5 degree rotational correction that was made.

The Left channel of the stereo output (Lt) consists of the sum of the two first-order virtual microphones (vLl + vLc) derived from the left ambisonic mic (Lm).  Because both of those virtual channels are being derived from the same physical microphone, they are fully coincident with no phase difference between them, and the virtual polar pattern which results from their sum will be a non-complex standard first-order pattern as well.  The shape of that combined pattern is going to be determined by the shape of the two individual patterns, the angle between them, their relative levels, and polarities.  We can take it one step further and break each pattern down into its fundamental omni and bidirectional components.

In this case, the two individual virtual patterns (vLl, vLc) are identical (hypercardioid) and their phase and polarity are also identical. Only the angle between them is different.. and perhaps their relative levels. 

If both virtual microphones were to share the same orientation angle, along with the same pattern, polarity, and level, the sum of the two would produce a combined virtual pattern with the same shape as the original virtual patterns, oriented in the same direction, yet with a 6dB increase in level.  If the two virtual hypercardioid microphones were instead oriented 180-degrees apart, their resulting sum would be an omni, with a decrease in level, the exact amount of which depends on how "hypercardioid" the pattern is. The omni components of the two virtual hypercardioids get summed (added together, since they have the same polarity) and the bidirectional vector components of each also get summed (subtracted and nulling out, as they have the same polarity yet are facing in opposing directions). 
^
From that we know that given a 65 degree angle between virtual microphones rather than 0 or 180 degrees, the pattern that results from the sum of Ll + Lc will be a shape that lies partway between the hypercardioid limit associated with 0 degrees and the omni limit associated with 180 degrees, we can't tell exactly because we don't know the relative levels at which they were mixed. But going further, since a cardioid is produced from the sum of omni and bidirectional components in equal amounts, we can assume the resulting pattern will be a shape that lies somewhere between hypercardioid and cardioid.. something cardioid or supercardioid-ish depending on levels.

The Right channel of the stereo output (Rt) is likely not nearly as simple!  I'm going to assume that during mixing the 0-degree forward facing virtual mic channel (vLc) was not routed hard left, but rather panned center in the stereo mix.. or somewhere close to center.  In other words,  it was routed more or less equally to Lt and Rt.  Len, if I'm mistaken about this please correct me.

If that is the case, like before both vRr and vLc are virtual hypercardoids with a 65 degree angle between them, except this time the two are no longer coincident but are instead spaced apart by 14cm, and that will produce a complex phase relationship above some threshold frequency which I won't bother to calculate. Below that frequency the pattern shape of the sum of the two virtual microphone channels will behave similarly to the Left stereo channel, except angled 65 degrees right rather than 65 degrees left.  Above that threshold frequency the pattern will be come complex, with peaks and nulls that form, shift and multiply with increasing frequency.. as does the pattern which results from the sum of any spaced pair.

But such is the nature of summing non-coincident mic channels. Not easy to analyze, but that doesn't mean it can't sound great if well managed. It's the way my arrays work whenever I mix them down to 2-channel stereo rather than routing the individual channels discretely to multiple speakers for playback in surround.  Many roads to Rome, and for music at least, the ear is the only compass that really matters.
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Offline kuba e

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Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2023, 09:43:34 AM »
Thank you Gutbucket, I totally agree.

The ability to create virtual microphones in ambisonics and mix them may confuse some. When we mix together any coincident virtual microphones at different angles in first-order ambisonics, we always get only one resulting microphone with a specific polar pattern (omni - fig.eight) in a certain direction. Mixing coincident microphones is nicely described in the mid/side theory, the basis of ambisonics. Here is a nice document where mid/side is explained with many examples:
https://sound-link.co.uk/docs/MS%20stereo%20-%20dooley%20&%20streicher.pdf

In this particular recording that Len is sharing with us, I slightly disagree with Gutbucket on one thing. It is a mistake to mix the left virtual microphone at 0 deg to the right channel. Comb filtering is created. It is much better to create a virtual microphone at 0 deg in the right microphone and mix it into the right channel. And if we do it this way, then we get back to that the resulting recording would be a near spaced pair of "supercardiods".

I know it's not the Len's recording, it was made by his customers. But it would be good to draw their attention to these two points mentioned here. It might help them a bit with the recording.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2023, 10:38:27 AM by kuba e »

Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

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Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2023, 07:13:04 AM »
When we mix together any coincident virtual microphones at different angles in first-order ambisonics, we always get only one resulting microphone with a specific polar pattern (omni - fig.eight) in a certain direction.

I'm curious what you think is the resultant polar pattern in the left side of that recording, mixing two hypercards, at 65 and 0? Is it a smooth subcardioid, or does it have lobes with peaks and nulls? What does it look like? What does it sound like as a mono channel? And what polar patterns emerge when listened to with the right side (also mixed with the center hypercardioid)?

With a single ambisonic mic decoded to XCY (again with hypercards), with the C mixed into both X and Y, what accounts for the directivity that we hear?

And with three traditional mono coincident hypercardioid mics pointed at +/- 65 and 0, with the 0 mic mixed into both left and right, what accounts for what we hear as left, right and center? What is that center mic doing?

Finally, move the right traditional mono hypercard to the right 17 cm. Mix them the same way as the coincident mics. What's the result? How does it differ from the coincident version of the array?
« Last Edit: December 04, 2023, 01:00:29 PM by Len Moskowitz (Core Sound) »
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Offline kuba e

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Re: All About Ambisonics
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2023, 09:02:14 PM »
Gutbucket explained it nicely. I add basic pictures and repeat Gutbucket's answer.

Examples of polar patterns are drawn in Figure 1. Each polar pattern can be decomposed into an omni component (a pressure component) and into a bi-directional component (a pressure gradient component). For example, cardiod has 50% omni and 50% bi-directional, see picture 2. And hypercardiod has 30% omni and 70% bi-directional.

So we can decompose each directional microphone into components omni and bi-directional. And when we mix two coincident microphones, we can simply mix their components and we have the result. We can do it purely graphically. The base is, when we add two identical omnis we get a double omni, see picture 3 (magnitude is in db, yellow line is +5db, double amplitude is +6db). The second base is the summation of two identical crossed bi-directional, see picture 4. Notice the red dots, that are the resulting maximum values. And from the graphic we can see that the resulting values are not twice as omni, but smaller.

And that's why if we mix two coincident crossed hypercardioids, we get a less directional pattern. The resulting omni component is double, but the bidirectional component is not double, it is smaller. How much smaller, it depends on the angle and mixing ratio. And also the resulting direction of the bidirectional component depends on the mixing ratio. When it's 50/50, the resulting direction is right in the middle. If one hypercardiod has a higher ratio, the resulting biddirection will point closer to it. If we mix two identical hypercardiods at an angle of 180° we get double omni, because bi-directional components are canceled. If we mix two identical hypercardiods at an angle of 0°, we get a double hypercardiod (+6db), omni and bi-directional components are doubled. And for example, ratio of 50/50 and an angle of +-30 deg give us approximately supercardiod at 0 deg. No math needed, just visualize it graphically.

Of course, the reality is a bit more complicated. But this model is very good and precise. Mid/side recording is built on it and if I understand correctly, also ambisonic of the first order.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2023, 04:08:35 AM by kuba e »

 

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