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Author Topic: Sony's new $600 recorder PCM-D50  (Read 114139 times)

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Offline mrsoul

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Re: Sony's new $600 recorder PCM-D50
« Reply #135 on: November 19, 2007, 10:08:48 PM »
ditto.
in fact, i'd like to have a nice high-MD rig for my stealthing.
although, running the church pre > mr1 at 1bit/2.8gHz WSD doesn't suck.


Yeap, I hear ya on that but since I already have two Hi-MDs and all the accessories, I'll keep it around as a back-up.  I have made some damn fine stealth recordings with my MDs and Hi-MDs, regardless of using compression or not.  The mic preamps on those little pups make up for the other stated negatives IMHO.  But, back to waiting on the PCM-D50 8)
It seems to me what you lose in mystery, you gain in awe.  Sir Francis Crick

Offline DSatz

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Re: Sony's new $600 recorder PCM-D50
« Reply #136 on: November 19, 2007, 10:51:12 PM »
Nick's Picks, maybe you're thinking of the way microphones with output transformers behave, as if all balanced microphones behaved that same way; your conception of the way things work applies 100% to microphones with output transformers.

But transformerless balanced microphones don't necessarily have symmetrical output circuits. They're still considered balanced if, for example, one pin isn't driven at all, but merely has passive components (such as an RC network) connecting it to circuit ground through the same impedance as the pin that's actively driven. Some very widely used transformerless professional condenser microphones--I'm thinking for example of the Neumann KM 100 and 180 series--are built that way.

Which pin they drive varies, however--the KM 100F amplifier drives one pin while the standard model KM 100 drives the other one (in opposite polarity). As a result, no matter whether you choose to ground pin 2 or pin 3 at the input to your unbalanced recording device (via a coupling capacitor of course, so that you don't short the phantom powering), with some kinds of very good microphones you will be shorting their entire audio output to ground. Whichever pin you choose, you're definitely screwed some of the time.

And that's not the only type of output configuration to contend with. The Schoeps circuit drives both pins 2 and 3 actively; if you short either one to ground (again, even if only at AC), you're loading half the circuit with a far lower impedance than it's designed to drive--and that is virtually guaranteed to cause premature overload.

I frankly don't know how DPA, AKG, or various Chinese manufacturers arrange their transformerless output circuits but I do know that each manufacturer of professional condenser microphones gives their own instructions for the proper connection of their own microphones to unbalanced inputs, and that the different manufacturers recommend at least four different schemes (that I know of) for doing this--and in some cases with one manufacturer alone, the instructions vary from model to model depending on the exact configuration of the output circuit. Choose the wrong approach for a given microphone type, and you may well get the silent treatment or early brickwalling.

So I repeat: The ONLY passive approach that works in all cases is an input transformer--and that, of course, effectively makes the input balanced.

Or you could build an active buffer circuit with a balanced input and an unbalanced output. But that can become a difficult project by the time you accomodate all different microphone sensitivities and impedances, and the whole point was to avoid active circuitry that would need its own powering, no? Otherwise, people might as well just bring along a mike-to-line preamp with balanced inputs and unbalanced outputs, and use the line inputs of the recording device.

--best regards
« Last Edit: November 19, 2007, 10:59:46 PM by DSatz »
music > microphones > a recorder of some sort

Offline prof_peabody

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Re: Sony's new $600 recorder PCM-D50
« Reply #137 on: November 19, 2007, 11:23:35 PM »
ditto.
in fact, i'd like to have a nice high-MD rig for my stealthing.
although, running the church pre > mr1 at 1bit/2.8gHz WSD doesn't suck.


Yeap, I hear ya on that but since I already have two Hi-MDs and all the accessories, I'll keep it around as a back-up.  I have made some damn fine stealth recordings with my MDs and Hi-MDs, regardless of using compression or not.  The mic preamps on those little pups make up for the other stated negatives IMHO.  But, back to waiting on the PCM-D50 8)

Personally - I think the pre-amp on the M1 is better than all the Sony minidisc recorders.  These days you can get a used M1 for ~$150, plus DATs are cheaper than minidiscs...  Quality wise the R-09's preamp is on par with the minidisc preamps.  If you tape 50 shows a year, then the R-09 pays for itself in media savings.  The reason I am excited about the D50 is that the preamp and ADC are probably better than the R-09.

Offline illconditioned

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Re: Sony's new $600 recorder PCM-D50
« Reply #138 on: November 19, 2007, 11:57:29 PM »
ditto.
in fact, i'd like to have a nice high-MD rig for my stealthing.
although, running the church pre > mr1 at 1bit/2.8gHz WSD doesn't suck.


Yeap, I hear ya on that but since I already have two Hi-MDs and all the accessories, I'll keep it around as a back-up.  I have made some damn fine stealth recordings with my MDs and Hi-MDs, regardless of using compression or not.  The mic preamps on those little pups make up for the other stated negatives IMHO.  But, back to waiting on the PCM-D50 8)

Personally - I think the pre-amp on the M1 is better than all the Sony minidisc recorders.  These days you can get a used M1 for ~$150, plus DATs are cheaper than minidiscs...  Quality wise the R-09's preamp is on par with the minidisc preamps.  If you tape 50 shows a year, then the R-09 pays for itself in media savings.  The reason I am excited about the D50 is that the preamp and ADC are probably better than the R-09.
I've found the MD preamps have lower noise than the R09.  Very good noise specs, actually.  For higher level signals, the R09 are a bit better I've found.  That is why I keep the MD around.  Me too, I'm hoping that the PCM-D50 will have better preamps than both.  That, and digital input make it perfect for a primary recorder.

  Richard
Please DO NOT mail me with tech questions.  I will try to answer in the forums when I get a chance.  Thanks.

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Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Sony's new $600 recorder PCM-D50
« Reply #139 on: November 20, 2007, 06:36:26 AM »
There's some very interesting stuff on the merits of the HiMD range preamps at http://www.wildlife-sound.org/equipment/himd/index.html - see also the stuff in the links, eg http://www.wildlife-sound.org/equipment/himd/himdmyths_meas.html - these machines have quite a reputation in wildlife recording circles, and these guys are very fussy about noise levels!  However, I realise that the needs of a wildlife recordist and  concert tapeist may differ somewhat.

Put it this way - if the PCM-D50 has preamps up to the standard of the RH-1 and the like, it should be pretty damn good.

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Sony's new $600 recorder PCM-D50
« Reply #140 on: November 20, 2007, 07:16:05 AM »
awesome info Dsatz.
thanks for the education.
+T

Offline finao1

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PCM-D50 Arrived
« Reply #141 on: November 20, 2007, 12:07:25 PM »
Just to confirm I recieved my D50 this morning.  Excellent service from B&H.  I unpacked it, loaded batteries to confirm it powers up.  I"m looking forward to trying it later today.

My initial impression is that this is a very well made piece of equipment for the $ (499).  The unit has a solid heft to it;  it is not necessarily heavy, but it does feel more substantial than the R-09 or the Zoom H4 I previously owned.  It is very close in size to the Zoom H4. 

I also was impressed that this must be a project that had designers paying attention to detail in design and manufacture.  The fit and finish is excellent.  I'm aware these observations are totally superficial (and may prove out differently over time), but compared to other recorders close in price, the Sony appearance is much higher quality.  I'll try to post some pictures shortly.

The dials for levels and headphone volume are very smooth to operate.  I'm going to like that better than the push buttons.  The display looks like it will be easy to read...I'm looking forward to trying it out.  Lets hope the sound quality is good.

BP

Offline mrsoul

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Re: Sony's new $600 recorder PCM-D50
« Reply #142 on: November 20, 2007, 12:17:47 PM »
Definitely that is cool.  I am hoping to have mine shipped out tomorrow from MF.  Pix of the new toy would be very cool as well.  Thanks for the update!
It seems to me what you lose in mystery, you gain in awe.  Sir Francis Crick

Offline Belexes

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Re: Sony's new $600 recorder PCM-D50
« Reply #143 on: November 20, 2007, 01:50:35 PM »
Thanks for the update...keep those comments/photos coming. (is it tax refund time yet!?  ;D )
Busman Audio BSC1-K1/K2/K3/K4 > HiHo Silver XLR's > Deck TBD

CA-14 (c,o)/MM-HLSC-1 (4.7k mod)/AT853(4.7k mod)(c,o,h,sc)/CAFS (o)/CA-1 (o) > CA-9100 (V. 4.1)/CA-9200/CA-UBB > Sony PCM-D50/Sony PCM-M10

Offline udo

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Re: Sony's new $600 recorder PCM-D50
« Reply #144 on: November 20, 2007, 02:40:55 PM »
Thanks for the first report on this!!! I would be super curious how the internal mics sound - whether they are crappy and should be entirely ignored (which would make me lean towards a fr2-le) or if they actually can be used.
Does it come with some sort of bag?
Thanks again,
Udo
sp c4s mixpre sony pcm-d50

Offline Nick's Picks

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Re: Sony's new $600 recorder PCM-D50
« Reply #145 on: November 20, 2007, 03:01:44 PM »
what i'd like to see...is if those mics can be hacked off and "extended" via a cable.
:)

kskreider

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Re: Sony's new $600 recorder PCM-D50
« Reply #146 on: November 20, 2007, 03:06:30 PM »
what i'd like to see...is if those mics can be hacked off and "extended" via a cable.
:)

I still vote for "hacked off".  I don't care how good they sound.

Offline mrsoul

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Re: Sony's new $600 recorder PCM-D50
« Reply #147 on: November 20, 2007, 03:23:27 PM »
Can't this puppy run with them before you cut his nuts (I mean mics) off?    :yikes:
It seems to me what you lose in mystery, you gain in awe.  Sir Francis Crick

Offline finao1

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Pictures as Promised
« Reply #148 on: November 20, 2007, 03:44:46 PM »
So far, so good.  I did some quick tests with my Rode NT3 and 302 mixer into line-in.  It is very easy to set a -20 level with the level knob by sending tone from the 302.  We appear to have the same issue we had with the R-09 knowing what exactly is unity gain.  Setting the levels to 0 turns all level off (even external line level).  Lots of trial to do, but initial recording looks (sounds) good and very clean.  I'm not detecting any hiss at all through the 7506 headphones using line in or direct mic in (NT3 to PCM-D50).  I start traveling tonight for Thanksgiving (16 hours of driving).  I'll try to check in via the road and add any updates.

Happy Thanksgiving.

BP

Offline finao1

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Two more pictures
« Reply #149 on: November 20, 2007, 03:46:56 PM »
In hand picture!

BP

 

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