Topic: improving low end of MK41 stereo recordings

[bigcitysound]

I am looking to record some church organ music among other shows in the near future and have a pair of Schoeps MK41's that I intend to use probably in ORTF.

I know the MK41 capsules have quite alot of bass roll off and am looking for a way to improve the low end of my recordings.

I was thinking of renting a single Schoeps MK2 or MK2S to mount in between the MK41's and then mixing this mono signal into the stereo image from the MK41's

Does this sound like a good solution to try and fill out the sub 200Hz frequncies?

I am open to other suggestions on how to accomplish better low end with the MK41's. I would love to be able to buy a pair of Schoeps omnis and run 4 channels.. I'll keep dreaming for now

[boojum]

Schoeps posts the specs on these caps as good down to 40KHz.  At that point they are down ~6dB.  They are also quite directional, which might be a problem.  You can boost the low en din post processing, but I would listen to the recording without processing before I boosted anything. 

Also, ORTF is designed for regular cardioids.  The array is a good idea for a starting point, yes, but you might want to consult the Williams Stereo Zoom paper, a stick in this forum, for further ideas on this super cardioid mic.

[ArchivalAudio]

here is my late night smart ass comment:
don't use Hypers
and it won't be ORTF if you don't use cards!

so that being said:

Hypers have  a thin and hollow sound  IMO
cards are more natural, or better yet the omnis

for an organ try Omnis at either end of the organ
or
as you mention use
true cards
for an ORTF array = 2 cardioid capsules @ 110° apart spaced at 17cm


you might even try spaced figure-8's as they would pick up direct and reflected sound - such would be the same with an omni


I know some folks like the hypers aka supercards
but to me
I am not fond of they way they sound

peace

[Roger Gustavsson]

All directional microphones rolls off the bass. The roll off increases with distance.

Schoeps MK2 with a LP40U can be used to fill in the missing bass on the MK41.

Roger

[kgreener]

maybe cut down your included angle (to 90 deg.) and distance (17 cm) and run DINA, this should give you fuller bass response:

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,82534.0.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,37335.0.html

[BC]

or maybe rent a pair of 21's? (since you were considering renting a single omni cap anyway)

[bigcitysound]

Thanks for the comments!

I should ofcourse be trying DIN A as a starting point with the hyper caps, and not ORTF!

I know I read somewhere about using a single omni with a pair of directional mics to try and supplement the low freq's.. So it seems this is a viable idea to try..
I might just try a borrow/rent a pair of MK2S or MK21's for the organ though, if the church is decent sounding I expect those caps would be better choices! But seeing as I own the MK41 pair, I thought I would try and make them work..

[Gutbucket]

I might just try a borrow/rent a pair of MK2S or MK21's for the organ though, if the church is decent sounding I expect those caps would be better choices!

Bingo!  Organ is the widest frequency range instrument around with lower frequency information than other acoustic or amplified instruments.  Omnis will be your best bet for capturing the immensity and power of the lowest octave and also a good choice to capture the enveloping sound of the organ in the room. The room in this case is an inseparable part of the instrument itself.  A spaced configuration will emphasize the ambience of the 'swirl' in the room and the open stereo envelopment of the lower registers as well as have a flatter response down low.

[ArchivalAudio]

I might just try a borrow/rent a pair of MK2S or MK21's for the organ though, if the church is decent sounding I expect those caps would be better choices!

Bingo!  Organ is the widest frequency range instrument around with lower frequency information than other acoustic or amplified instruments.  Omnis will be your best bet for capturing the immensity and power of the lowest octave and also a good choice to capture the enveloping sound of the organ in the room. The room in this case is an inseparable part of the instrument itself.  A spaced configuration will emphasize the ambience of the 'swirl' in the room and the open stereo envelopment of the lower registers as well as have a flatter response down low.

yep- thanx for  saying it so articulately
spaced omnis somewhat close would be the bomb!
-- Ian

[bigcitysound]

thanks guys 

Must get me some omnis looks like!

[sparkey]

I know the MK41 capsules have quite alot of bass roll off

I own a pair of 41's and don't agree with that statement.  Beware the generalizations of (typically non-Schoeps owning) what are taken for common assumptions on the TS.

[grider]

that hyper cap is probably the worst cap choice for your recording needs; I'd say an omni, then card, then sub card, in that order of preference, would all be better choices than would be a hyper

[SonicSound]

From my experience, I have had very good results with two stereo pairs.  My configuration is almost always one stereo pair coincident [x/y or blumlein] and the other stereo pair spaced omni’s [split or j-disk].  In some respects the blend almost creates a subcardioid sound.  However I find that I have more control with the 4mic matrix than with a nos type set-up.  I also use tube mic preamps [m222/nt222] which tends to provide some warmth to either supercardioids [mk41v’s] or bidirectional/Figure-8 [mk8’s].

I would suggest that you rent a pair of omni’s and try using them with your 41’s [x/y].  Also take a look at the stereo recording angle charts [Michael Williams – Microphone Arrays for Stereo and Multichannel Sound Recording – Volume 1].  A supercardioid mic x/y will result in a SRA of approx. 65+/- deg and a hypercardioid in x/y configuration yields a 50+/- deg SRA.  Spaced omni’s have the following SRA: 38cm = 90, 41cm = 70, and 50cm = 50.

Does anyone know if the mk41 or mk41v’s are supercardioid [back attenuation of 12dB] or hypercardioid [back attenuation of 6dB]?

In the end, relax and have a great time recording this event

[easy jim]

I was thinking of renting a single Schoeps MK2 or MK2S to mount in between the MK41's and then mixing this mono signal into the stereo image from the MK41's

I am an advocate, and have had a lot of pleasing results IMO running 3mic mixes w/ 2x card or hyper + 1x center omni mic.  I always capture them separately, and then mix at home in a more controlled monitoring environment.  You can find at least handful of examples of this technique from recordings by myself or tgakidis, though with AKG instead of Schoeps mics , on the LMA.

[Gutbucket]

I'm not a Schoeps user but I believe the 41's are closer to your supercard definition in pattern.

I also like running a setup similar to SonicSound with 4 mics that I can mix after the fact (or not) to best effect, but I don't think that is necessary for a great recording if you don't have the gear or inclination to set that up. I usually use a spaced omni pair and a central directional pair, or sometimes four omnis in a row. In this case I'd consider the two omnis my primary pair and I'd have no hesitation running those alone for a simple 2 track recording.

The Williams charts are great and I recommend them as a starting point, yet I don't think they apply as strongly in this case as they would for other things.  Two reasons why: 1) In this case the organ sound is sort of big, room filling and all encompassing and not sharply defined by transient attack of the notes. The primary goal of William's arrays is managing the recording angle distortion so that the playback image is accurately reproduced between the two speakers.  That is more of a concern with things such as a group of acoustic players whom you'd like to image sharply and accurately across the playback stage, reflecting their positions when the recording was made. To a lesser extent the same applies to recordings of amplified music with FOH reinforcement.  In that case reducing the image distortion within the image is less important than getting the width of the overall pickup angle correct.  In contrast, in this situation the sound is less directional than either of those cases.  2) In my experience the Williams charts work best for directional mics.  They also work for omnis, but for one thing, spaced omnis don't image as sharply which reduces the value of dialing in the most accurate imaging.  Compounding that are other factors to consider which are often more important for me.  For lack of better words, those factors are usually the 'timbre' of the recording and the 'stereo-ness'.  The amount of spacing between the omnis effects both of those things. If you can use a pair of isolating headphones and monitor while setting up the mics with music playing you can adjust those to taste.  Doing that I often end up with a wider spacing than Williams suggests, but not wide enough to make a hole.  Often I end up around 3 feet / 1 meter. YMMV.

The Williams approach is a great starting point for the omnis though and clearly applies to a directional pair if you add them.  A coincident or near spaced config with the mk41s would make a great second pair if you care to try that.