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Author Topic: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10  (Read 15508 times)

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Offline setboy

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2010, 05:30:10 PM »
What is the internal noise on this sony thing? that would be my biggest reason to use or not use it.


Edit: People lets get this back on topic by helping this person out on what he should tape with. A lot has been said that really does not help some one at all in deciding what to buy.  Eliezer has voiced his thoughts other have done the same. Lets keep this out of the you're right i'm wrong kind of BS.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 05:32:48 PM by setboy »

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2010, 05:57:09 PM »
Mine peaks a bit higher, more like 5kHz, which makes sense given the size of the case.  But that doesn't matter for measuring volume of a show; mics don't overload because the PA is pushing 5kHz too loud.  People would run screaming from a show were that the case.

Your absolutely right but if you dont compensate for the 5db spike at 5k then you have an issue with your accuracy. Because you could very easily have a 5k spike at a like show that pushes the meter average up to mess with the accuracy. You know its not bad for what it is.. I am not saying its junk.. Funny now you can pick up a good meter like a Simpson on eBay for dirt cheap with a calibrator.

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Offline mloewen

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2010, 06:02:40 PM »
Back on topic I am using a Pcm 10 I put together a rig on the cheap. I got Church Audio 14s and a 9100 pre. For a stand I got one of those painters poles and a Satellite dish tripod to hold it up. I made windscreens out of Faux fur I got as a sample from distincive fabrics . I just got a little umbrella made to clamp on a baby stroller for 10 bucks (even swivels to different angles.) I am looking foward to getting a decent tripod but will get some good use out of my cheap rig for now.

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2010, 06:03:58 PM »
Back on topic I am using a Pcm 10 I put together a rig on the cheap. I got Church Audio 14s and a 9100 pre. For a stand I got one of those painters poles and a Satellite dish tripod to hold it up. I made windscreens out of Faux fur I got as a sample from distincive fabrics . I just got a little umbrella made to clamp on a baby stroller for 10 bucks (even swivels to different angles.) I am looking foward to getting a decent tripod but will get some good use out of my cheap rig for now.

Hey where do you get that fake fur? I want to get some to offer it as an option for my mics...

Chris
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Offline Eliezer

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2010, 06:05:01 PM »
Boy howdy -- are they piling up!  :o

@12milluz / Reply #37
 
From your posts, you give off the idea that you rather care about the concert while you're there than recording it. That's cool, its great. But not everyone else is like that. You can't expect to come into a forum like this and express your opinion and expect everyone else to agree or be wrong.

I expect to be given room to express my opinion and then have other people offer theirs without acting like children.  Doesn't seem to be an out of the ordinary expectation.

You never saw the word "wrong" come out of my keyboard.  Did you.  :-\


@bluelawn / Reply #38

So what you are saying is that the internal mics and pres on your M10 are as crappy as a $60 guitar?  No better than "get the job done" quality?  That to make a decent recording I really will see a huge improvement using a high quality pre-amp & high quality microphones?

This is important to me because I intended to buy one tomorrow to do some field recordings of musicians.  Having settled the overload issue, I want to double check with a real user of the Sony - not some phony reviewer on the Net.

As I say, a musician and instrument-maker recommended it.  And I trust his ears (if not his knowledge of high fidelity, as such).

And that is why I cam to this chat about the very model I am looking at.  If you really think that, then I may have to hold back.  What do you think of the $600 Sonys and Marantzes?


@Church-Audio

Placement of mics in a sound field is everything to do with getting a great recording. That's just common sense.


Truer words ne'er spoken.


@mshilarious

Split omnis (Schoeps) is what WGBH Radio switched to when we were doing live broadcasts of the Boston Symphony Orchestra.  i can't remember what they replaced, but the old cardioids were around $1200 each in 1974.  We got many calls commenting on the improved clarity.  From a sticker audience.  { Hell -- we had a VP at AR who played record company master tapes right into the transmitter to avoid all broadcast processing!  And WGBH stands for Gret Blue Hills, so he had to drive a 70-pound R-R, cables, tapes, etc. up and down 40 miles of hills to do this every week.  Audience loved it. }

In a pinch I once made a broadcast recording of a choir using two RE-635 omni interview mics spaced about 8 feet apart and 8 feet back.  Sounded great.  Lots of complements from the choir, too!


Hey, y'all - be sure to buy your fave's CDs, tip your waitress, and share your water at them there bluegrass festivals!

Offline bluelawn

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2010, 06:47:24 PM »
@bluelawn / Reply #38

So what you are saying is that the internal mics and pres on your M10 are as crappy as a $60 guitar?  No better than "get the job done" quality?  That to make a decent recording I really will see a huge improvement using a high quality pre-amp & high quality microphones?

This is important to me because I intended to buy one tomorrow to do some field recordings of musicians.  Having settled the overload issue, I want to double check with a real user of the Sony - not some phony reviewer on the Net.

As I say, a musician and instrument-maker recommended it.  And I trust his ears (if not his knowledge of high fidelity, as such).

And that is why I cam to this chat about the very model I am looking at.  If you really think that, then I may have to hold back.  What do you think of the $600 Sonys and Marantzes?


absolutely,
i don't think any internal mic on a hand-held will ever be able to compete with a proper pair of phantom powered mics.
"getting the job done" is a very slippery slope on a hobbyist board of any type.
one mans trash is an-others treasure
i deleted the files i used as my comparison unfortunately. 
but you don't need to spend alot to go this route
good luck in your recording
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Offline achalsey

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2010, 06:54:26 PM »
Again, read the OP topic, this is not about the M10, he has an M10 and is looking for other gear.

(insert new thread here)

Offline acidjack

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #52 on: May 24, 2010, 06:59:28 PM »
^^^^ QFT, setboy and achalsey.

I find the direction this has gone - and most threads that are about internal mics - idiotic.  This is a hobbyist board - for beginners and more experienced folks.  Obviously, internal mics can record sound - it says so on the package.  Opinions vary as to how good the sound of various internal mics is.  But on a hobbyist board, generally, I think the expectation of those seeking advice is how to do something, well, like a hobbyist, rather than just a completely casual user. 

I have taken many vacation and other photos that provided me - a non-hobbyist camera-wise - plenty of enjoyment, on a plain old Canon portable.  Some of them might even be "as good" as photos taken on much more expensive cameras, at least to the casual user's eye.  But I would think it would be pointless, if not insulting, for me to go on a photographic hobbyist board and ask, "I'm a beginner, how do I take great photos" and then assume that the right answer is, "get a cheap all-in-one camera from Best Buy and go to it."  Why bother asking?

The point being, as I said, everyone knows that internal mics on recorders can recording something, some of them better than others.  But you don't need the advice of relatively serious hobbyists to tell you that.  And if the question simply is, "Can I record concerts using internal mics?" the answer will always be, "Yes" - just like a cheap Canon can take photos (sometimes even really good ones).   

If you think the stock internal microphones on a Sony M10 are as good as even most brands of inexpensive microphone that people talk about on here, then you probably aren't that interested in this as a hobby. It doesn't make you a bad person, or not a real fan of music, or an idiot, or any other negative thing.  IMHO, it does mean you're not a "taper", as looked at on this board.  Just like taking a nice photo now and again on my cheap camera doesn't make me a "photographer."
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Offline ehren

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2010, 07:03:59 PM »
Plus, you really don't get to enjoy the music while you are actually there.

 :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yack: :yack: :yack: :yack: :yack: :yack: :yack: :yack:

Offline Tedley

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2010, 08:21:49 PM »
That was quite a squall that blew through. I wonder if the OP is still following this thread. If so, I still stick by my recommendation on page 1, Church-Audio package, which meets his stated requirements. Still waiting for my mics, but made the recommendation of them by listening to recordings of them listed on this board. I will mostly tape unamplified acoustic music in sessions and small venues. Hell, I even play Irish flute as well. Though the M-10 will not overload at the levels I will record, being able to place mics in more optimal positions and having the ability to share the results with fellow musicians makes the additional outlay worthwhile, IMHO. I am a musician just re-entering taping as a hobby, but am finding gear lust to be something I am not immune to. I just did some taping, using borrowed gear, and the musicians were happy for the copy of what came down. I got to play with a SD 744. Now that is something to lust after.

Offline landshark

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #55 on: May 25, 2010, 05:10:27 PM »
To the OP - I also have the PCM-M10, recently acquired.  In testing it out, I've used the internal mics as well as a CChurch 9100 preamp and both the CA14's and CA omnis.  My comments on both:

The Sony internals are surprisingly good.  I'd guess they beat out most of the internal mics out there.  In situations where I'm grabbing and going and don't want additional gear or have no ability to use a stand or clamp, it's pretty good on it's own.  I'd say similar to my MicroTrak, battery box, and Sound Devices omnis.  Maybe a little less crisp on the high end.  The big drawbacks are the omnis at shirt pocket level pick up any surrounding chatter.  I don't know about you, but at festivals and concerts there seem to frequently be those folks who decide now's the time to regurgitate every stray thought and experience with their friends, in complete disregard of everyone around them.  With the omnis at body height, you're probably going to get more of that than you like.  Just the ability to put a pair of omnis at any distance above that chatter will add significantly to your ultimate result.  Or getting the M10 above the fray.

I can hear a significant difference, however, when using the outboard preamp, both with the omnis and cards.  SPL and overload could be a problem in some venues, but probably not in the one you mention.  I did hear much clearer sound with the preamp and outboard mics (bass that was "punchier", highs that were "crisper"), so I think you'd be pleased with those as an option.  I like my Church-Audio gear and think it's off the charts in terms of "bang for buck".  If you've got $200 or $250 to spend, that's the best place to spend it, in my opinion.  Get an inexpensive stand, some wire spreaders, and drape split Church Audio omnis at 10' or more above the crowd and you'll probably get a recording you look back on year after year and enjoy.  Just don't set up anywhere near the beer tent <grin>.



To Eliezer - It may not have been your intent, but the language you chose in your posts (referring to others as behaving like children, denigrating their decisions, demanding specific responses, suggesting that tapers are just looking to screw over artists and not buy CDs) is pretty offensive to the community who posts here.  You are entitled to say what you like, but if you offend your audience, you shouldn't be surprised if they return the favor. 

As to a convincing reason why we tape or what we do with our tapes, I can't speak for everyone but I can speak for myself.  Part of it is the creative process of trying to achieve the highest quality and best sound I can - hearing a good pull just once gives me a feeling of accomplishment, because it's not easy.  I think I would enjoy being an audio engineer for the same reason.  It's usually only one in five recordings that I truly like, and will be listened to again, occasionally.  The other part is capturing a moment when a performer performs something unique in their show, such as a song that's NOT on a CD )or a cover), a variation of a studio cut, or a truly scintillating performance.  Those are the real gems.  To paraphrase a quote someone used to have on their signature here, referring I think to a Miles Davis live performance made into an album, "We taped it in case it didn't happen again.  And it hasn't." 

As far as screwing over the artists, the artists I tape probably make more off the ticket I buy to their show than any CD I might buy, and if I like them enough to tape them I probably have all their CDs already.  I also only tape artists who allow it, so clearly they agree.  I do agree with you that the scumbags who take traded songs, burn them to CD and sell them on ebay and elsewhere are scum, but it's the act of selling, not the act of taping that's reprehensible.

I think the majority here are driven by similar considerations, so please consider that before denigrating what we enjoy doing by the words you use to describe it.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 05:13:22 PM by landshark »
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Offline rjp

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #56 on: May 25, 2010, 11:14:37 PM »
As far as screwing over the artists, the artists I tape probably make more off the ticket I buy to their show than any CD I might buy, and if I like them enough to tape them I probably have all their CDs already.

Indeed, that homemade recording could cost more than the artist's entire discography. Let's see:

  • Cost of ticket
  • Cost of transportation to and from the venue
  • Cost of incidentals (drinks, parking, lodging, etc.)
  • Amortized cost of recording equipment
  • Time spent postprocessing

"Welcome to Taperssection, kiss your wallet goodbye."  ;D
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Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #57 on: May 29, 2010, 06:19:46 PM »
I said that, in my opinion, the stock machine will do the job the OP wants to do.  Nothing more and nothing less.  If you don't agree, than calmly and simply explain why.  Maybe give some examples or some tech report.

When I need to be pointlessly insulted, I'm sure there are sites for that as well.

The stock machine sounds good to me and according to guysonic it is better than most at resisting overloads  (I think he said up to about 124 dB). It's ease a of use may make you happy and you may be very satisfied with the sound. It may be great when used like a point & shoot camera. But for a serious recordist who will be playing the recordings again and again in the future, basically all of us agree that it will sound way better with better external mics that you can separate and get up in there air. There is no use arguing about it, you really have to try it both ways and hear it for yourself. You don't have to spend a fortune either. Chruch Audio gear will make a dramatic improvement.

As to feeling you were insulted, if you want to be a member here, I wouldn't imply that you think we are ripping off artists with our taping activities. I agree 100% with landshark. Your posts were bound to offend many of us any attract insults.

To Eliezer - It may not have been your intent, but the language you chose in your posts (referring to others as behaving like children, denigrating their decisions, demanding specific responses, suggesting that tapers are just looking to screw over artists and not buy CDs) is pretty offensive to the community who posts here.  You are entitled to say what you like, but if you offend your audience, you shouldn't be surprised if they return the favor. 

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Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

Offline AlphaDoug

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2010, 12:09:21 PM »
Holy Geez!  I hadn't been back on here for a while since I thought the thread died out!  Thanks to all of your who gave me your considered responses.  And just to clarify a few things:  I now have had a little experience with my new M10.  The other night I recorded a set at an outdoor Folk/Bluegrass festival.  I set the mic sensitivity on low, set recording on Manual and the level to just under 5.0 and turned the limiter on.  This festival was in a large mylar festival tent, so there was some "bounce" from the overhead tent.  And the sound stack was not awesome.  I held the recorder on my knee, and I was about 15 or 20 feet back from the stage in the third row or so, but we were in folding chairs, spaced out pretty good.  The result:  I was amazed at just how good this thing is, even with the built in mics and sub-optimal placement.  To address one of the issues that Eliezer brought up, the biggest issue with the recording was placement.  The guy in front of me had a cooler between he and his wife, and he kept reaching in to pull a bottle out of the ice and slam the lid back on.  Dutifully recorded by the M10!  Also, "chatters" around an behind me, dutifully recorded.  I like "some" ambient noise, but not that much.  I could have put the recorder up on a tall stand, but then I couldn't monitor the levels.  Anyway, even with all of that, I was impressed a lot.  Playing the session back on my large stereo set up at home was also awesome! 

To address a couple of comments made since I was here last.  The reason I asked on here is that, even with a lot of Google research and reading articles, I really wanted to get the opinions of experienced tapers before I went off half cocked and bought a bunch of stuff I didn't need.  Also, I am very aware that I actually don't want to get to the point that I don't enjoy the concerts I go to while constantly checking my recording gear.  So I will probably be more of a set it and forget it type of taper in the long run.  Next, the reason I want to tape, is that most of these concerts have an ambience that you never get on a studio recorded CD.  I resent the implication that I would tape to rip off a struggling artist.  I try very hard to buy CDs or at least download CDs from sites that pay the artists better than the distributor (CD Baby comes to mind).  Musicians have added so much to my long and twisted existence, and I try to pay them back as much as possible.  So I'm just trying to preserve some memories and get a different recording than I might have otherwise. 

As soon as I can figure out how to post some tracks on here, I will put up a couple of songs from the festival I was just at.  The group was a quickly assemble group of instructors from the Colorado Roots Music Camp to be held this next week.  Violin: Ky'lin Yong, Bass: Cary Black, Guitar & Vocals: Raul Reynoso, Guitar & Vocals: Syd Smith, Guitar, Mandola & Vocals: Charlie Hall. 

Thanks for all the helpful suggestions!

Offline fmaderjr

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Re: Inexpensive Microphone Suggestions for Newbie with Sony PCM-M10
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2010, 05:10:44 PM »
The built in mics do sound good if you're not comparing them to recordings made with good externals like Church Audio gear. You will probably hear more ambiance with separated externals also.

I actually find it easier to run the recorder at concerts using externals. Hide the externals in a Kangol and I can check my levels if the volume goes up a lot without worrying about moving the mics. Plus I don't have to hold the M10 in my hand (which probably gets a bit better results than  having the internal mics sticking out of your shirt pocket, though you would have to hold tightly and not reposition your hands to avoid handling noise).
AT853's (all caps)/CM-300 Franken Naks (CP-1,2,3)/JBMod Nak 700's (CP-701,702) > Tascam DR-680
Or Sonic Studios DSM-6 > M10

 

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