Topic: I need help with my first pair of mics

[AmazingPudding]

I am putting together my first rig and I am very confused about what type of mics to buy. The ones I am familiar with that are popular here with other tapers are a little out of my budget (Schoepps MK22, AKG C414). As I look at new mics, I just dont know what model or type of condenser to buy. The only thing I do know is I like the cardiod pattern. I am budgeting $1000 for a PAIR of mics with the capsule and the base(that may be the wrong word but you know what I mean). I am apprehensive about buying used mics as this is the most intimate part of the rig. That being said, I am open to all suggestions even if you think I should buy used sets of the above mentioned mics.

[jbell]

Are you looking for full bodies or remote capsules?

I am putting together my first rig and I am very confused about what type of mics to buy. The ones I am familiar with that are popular here with other tapers are a little out of my budget (Schoepps MK22, AKG C414). As I look at new mics, I just dont know what model or type of condenser to buy. The only thing I do know is I like the cardiod pattern. I am budgeting $1000 for a PAIR of mics with the capsule and the base(that may be the wrong word but you know what I mean). I am apprehensive about buying used mics as this is the most intimate part of the rig. That being said, I am open to all suggestions even if you think I should buy used sets of the above mentioned mics.

[aosone]

Just get a pair of small diaphragm condensers. You don't need to spend a fortune before you get experience.

[AmazingPudding]

Are you looking for full bodies or remote capsules?

I am not sure. What's the difference? Is one better than the other for audience recording?

I am putting together my first rig and I am very confused about what type of mics to buy. The ones I am familiar with that are popular here with other tapers are a little out of my budget (Schoepps MK22, AKG C414). As I look at new mics, I just dont know what model or type of condenser to buy. The only thing I do know is I like the cardiod pattern. I am budgeting $1000 for a PAIR of mics with the capsule and the base(that may be the wrong word but you know what I mean). I am apprehensive about buying used mics as this is the most intimate part of the rig. That being said, I am open to all suggestions even if you think I should buy used sets of the above mentioned mics.

[Fatah Ruark (aka MIKE B)]

You have MANY options in the $1000 range.

This thread is slightly dated, but should help:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=35004.0

I would look up some recordings made at venue's you plan on recording at, and find recordings made with mics in your price range and start listening. The Live Music Archive is your friend.

[PeteJE]

The Sennheiser MKH series (MKH40 = card.) are also an excellent choice.  Schoeps are popular for a good reason - they are hard to beat in quality and sound (my first choice in this higher end condenser mic range).  AKG 414s are good, but sonically not my preference (although some vintage versions were outstanding). 

All of these are not, in any way, going to be a very portable set up.  They require GOOD 48V phantom (don't expect onboard phantom on some of the portable recorders to be adequate), and mic pre's to realize their full potential.  You will just not get results that justify the mic without equal quality power and amplification - plugging these into an H4, for example, IMO, is just going to be a waste of time and money.

The best way to proceed is to clearly define your goals for recording.  These mics are very good choices and well worth the money, but a bit of the wrong choice if portable, on the move, or stealth recording is desired.  They will only be as good as the situation lets them (set up, mic placement, environment).  If they are mis-matched to your goals or situation you will likely end up disappointed.  Equally good results can be had in location or portable environments with some of the higher end portable electret condensers as mentioned here.  Open taping venues, or for your own studio or practice or more controlled environments - the higher end condensers are a great choice. 

Also, there are many rental options (depending on your location) to try these various mics out first - a set of any of the above, high-end condensers are only ~10 - 20 a day with a 3day billing for a full week from most places around here (although I am in L.A. that has a large market for recording equipment and multiple rental outfits).

[OOK]

I am putting together my first rig and I am very confused about what type of mics to buy. The ones I am familiar with that are popular here with other tapers are a little out of my budget (Schoepps MK22, AKG C414). As I look at new mics, I just dont know what model or type of condenser to buy. The only thing I do know is I like the cardiod pattern. I am budgeting $1000 for a PAIR of mics with the capsule and the base(that may be the wrong word but you know what I mean). I am apprehensive about buying used mics as this is the most intimate part of the rig. That being said, I am open to all suggestions even if you think I should buy used sets of the above mentioned mics.

Bussman small condensers............full set of caps....great starter mics......great mics period.......500$ for the pair plus you get omnis, cards, wide cards and hyper caps....again all for 500$.....

http://www.busmanaudio.com/

They will keep there value if you decide your not really into recording.....once you get some experience and you get bit by upgrade fever.....then make the jump to something more pricey....but pricey doesn't mean better....there is a lot more involved in pulling a good recording than just mics....location, acoustics, the mix coming through the pa. etc etc....  If it sounds like shit...you will record shit no matter what mic your using.......  get the busmans and use the money saved to buy tickets....

Peace OOK

[PeteJE]

Those Bussman's look like a great alternative.  I love the stereo mic - could be great for M/S recordings in one package.  Wonder how they are, sonically. 

[newplanet7]

In the other thread you mentioned your prefferences being neumanns, akg, and schoeps.
Cross the schoeps off. Neumanns will still be tough for 1000 but can be had used.
Now you mention you are wary of buying used mics. I would recommend buying used here in our yard sale.
If you are dead set against used, this will limit you even more.

Are you going to be open taping? I take it yes with you looking into the 414's, which aren't going to happen new or used for $1000
NEW
-If you go new look into listening to some samples of Beyerdynamics MC930's. These can be had new for around $700. 
They sound great. They are non modular though, meaning it's a fixed cardioid cap on the preamp.
-Also, as suggested above, NEW would be a pair of the Busman Mics. I think they run $450ish for a set that includes the bodies and four sets of caps,
shock mounts, and a t-bar.
-Another set of mics that you could easily obtain would be Studio Project c4's. A ton of folks STARTED with these here BUT upgraded thereafter.
I might skip these because you will upgrade from these fairly quick IMO. Pesently in our YS used
-There are also some of Audio Technica(AT) mics that can be had for under $1000. You should research those also.

USED opens it up quite a bit. I would buy used here in our yardsale.
Depending on what's available:
-AKG se391's with two sets of caps for under $1000 can be had. I initially started out with these but upgraded soon after. There are tons of samples
of these on Live Music archive.
-AKG c460b with a set of caps for under $1000 can be had. These are what I moved into and will be keepers for me. Love them.
Also modular, so you can add hypers and omni's later on.
-Neumanns KM184 cards. I dig these personally. Non modular/fixed cardioid. Presently in out YS for $900. http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=139644.0

These are just a few suggestions that will give you some nice sound.

[aosone]

Those Bussman's look like a great alternative.  I love the stereo mic - could be great for M/S recordings in one package.  Wonder how they are, sonically.

I have a few M/S mics (Sony ECM-999; Shure VP-88, and a couple of others). I use them with a Sound Devices MP-2 and have been quite happy with the results. The major advantages are pattern adjustment and fewer cables, stands, etc.

[PeteJE]

Those Bussman's look like a great alternative.  I love the stereo mic - could be great for M/S recordings in one package.  Wonder how they are, sonically.

I have a few M/S mics (Sony ECM-999; Shure VP-88, and a couple of others). I use them with a Sound Devices MP-2 and have been quite happy with the results. The major advantages are pattern adjustment and fewer cables, stands, etc.

A good M/S recording is hard to beat for dimensionality.  Not always the right choice for a live music recording, but I really love this technique and results when I have used it for various things.

[newplanet7]

Those Bussman's look like a great alternative.  I love the stereo mic - could be great for M/S recordings in one package.  Wonder how they are, sonically.

Page on this board used to run the stereo mic I do believe.
So unless he pops in here you should hit him up. http://taperssection.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1482
To the OP
Page also runs those beyers I was suggesting before. His are the ck version( caps with remote cable then body) for lower profile.

[ero3030]

first find the sound u like, and go in that direction.  if u cant afford what u really want, try to wait till u can.  dont  dissapoint your self, or get caught up into " the upgrade" bug.  it will cost u more in the long run going that way.  tons of peeps on this board probably wish they would of bought what they r running now with out having to do it step by step.  somtimes u have to do it little by little, but if u can wait it out, and buy what YOU really want, it will deff pay off in the long run.  this is IMO of course.....and from personal experience.   ed

[newplanet7]

Agreed on the upgrade bug.
I wish I had just entered with what I wanted instead of settling for less.

[achalsey]

Okay I'm a newbie so take it with a grain of salt but...

As others have said, definitely figure out what mics sound good to your ears not just "what other people like," before impulse buying.  I used to just see Neumann, Schoeps, AKG recorded shows and thought, sweet this will sound GREAT!  Not always the case.  Personally I've been finding I really like the AKG sound over most of the others.  But again thats just me.  Your ears might like something else, so try to check out the LMA to see what sounds best overall to you.

So to second what some people have said...
the Busman set certainly gives the most versatility and affordability so you'll be able to try out all sorts of options and configurations and really get a feel for any situation you want.

I personally really like the sound of the c460b with the ck61 caps.  Less versatility and more expensive than the busmans but like people have said, its a preference thing.

Personally, I would say if you're not sure what you're getting into and just trying to throw a grand down on some mics because you can and its an awesome hobby to get into, figure out what you want and what you're doing first.

[yltfan]

Re: the upgrade bug

Apart from the crappy, un-sellable Sony stereo mic in my collection, the upgrade bug does not need to be very costly (unless you end up keeping everything). Seems to me that most good mics tend to hold their value pretty well, as long as you take care of them, and get a good deal to begin with.

So my advice is different. Just grab those km184's in the Yard Sale, or these crazy looking bad boys: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=140946.0 or whatever else has some good reviews and is a good deal.

Try them out, and if you're not happy, trade 'em in for some Schoeps or AKG's. I bet any of these mics will hold their value here on TS, and if necessary, you could head over to Fleabay, where the prices are even higher (take a peak at km184's over there, for example).

[stevetoney]

Re: the upgrade bug

Apart from the crappy, un-sellable Sony stereo mic in my collection, the upgrade bug does not need to be very costly (unless you end up keeping everything). Seems to me that most good mics tend to hold their value pretty well, as long as you take care of them, and get a good deal to begin with.

So my advice is different. Just grab those km184's in the Yard Sale, or these crazy looking bad boys: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=140946.0 or whatever else has some good reviews and is a good deal.

Try them out, and if you're not happy, trade 'em in for some Schoeps or AKG's. I bet any of these mics will hold their value here on TS, and if necessary, you could head over to Fleabay, where the prices are even higher (take a peak at km184's over there, for example).

^^ I agree with this recommendation.

You'll only know what you like by trying it out.  It's great to listen to samples to try and hone in on what you might like and rule out what you might not, but in the end until you put the gear in your own hands and try it out in the places you will be taping, you really won't know ahead of time what you like and what you don't...so I like the advice to buy used in the YS.  If you don't like what you bought, you can turn it around later for the same price you bought it for (minus postage and paypal fees).  Just stick with gear that has good resale such as the major brands (AKG, Neumann, etc)...don't buy oddball stuff that won't have a very wide appeal to the mass market or else it might take alot longer to sell.

Until you know for sure what you want, I'd avoid buying new because the new gear depreciates straight out of the box, but used gear retains its value.  If you're patient, you'll find gear that you want and you'll sell gear you want to sell.  It just sometimes takes time. 

In general, you can trust the Yard Sale much more than ebay because this is a community and we take care of each other, so while ripoffs can happen in the YS, they're not very frequent...and you will AT LEAST get the satisfaction that if you get hosed, you'll have an entire community coming to your defense and the perp will also be needing to save face in the same community, both in cyberspace and at the gig.

Finally, if I had exactly $1000 to spend and wanted to get the best mics that a grand can buy on the used market, for my ears I'd put the grand towards either a pair of Neumann KM184, a pair of AKG-480 with cardioid capsules, or a pair of MBHO 603a with cardioid capsules (although the MBHO's aren't seen too often in the YS).

[AmazingPudding]

first find the sound u like, and go in that direction.  if u cant afford what u really want, try to wait till u can. 

I have spent all morning listening to some of my favorite artists in the LMA. I have determined what I really like in my budget, rather than what i like overall. Before I get to what I like, let me state my point on new vs. used: My father is a retired engineer who used to work for Bruel & Kjaer (B&K) when they still had their pro audio division. As a Field Application Engineer who sold many (sound measurement) microphones he has advised me that I should buy NEW as mics are a very fragile and delicate instrument and a newbie like me may not be able to see(or hear) flaws in a used mic. That being said...I am very impressed with the sound of the following mics:

Beyerdynamic MC930 - this was by far my favorite inthe $500 category

I also like the sound and versatility of the Busman BSC1 with switchable caps

and I am intrigued by the Rode NT4 which sound great as well.

I would now like to ask for feedback by those of you who use any of these mics.  Thanks to everyone for your suggestions. I AM ALMOST THERE!!!!!

[rastasean]

Statistically speaking, I don't know but I would say 96-99.9% of all microphones in the yard sale have been taken VERY, EXTREMELY good care of. Occasionally microphones do get dented and the paint chips but we like our microphones so they are usually treated better than our bodies. Buying new is nice if you can afford it and are paranoid about the fragileness of the microphone but if that's the case, I wouldn't bother taking it outside of a studio. We expose our microphones to conditions and events young children are usually not able to attend and excellent recordings are made.

The NT4 is neat looking but I think there are better microphones you can shop around for. That mic would be better used in a studio for a guitar or folly work...I have heard great audience recordings from it, though. If you're interested in single point stereo, check out the Studio Projects LSD-2.

[burris]

If you like 414's and have $1000 then get the 214's since they are cardioid-only 414's.

[PeteJE]

Statistically speaking, I don't know but I would say 96-99.9% of all microphones in the yard sale have been taken VERY, EXTREMELY good care of. Occasionally microphones do get dented and the paint chips but we like our microphones so they are usually treated better than our bodies. Buying new is nice if you can afford it and are paranoid about the fragileness of the microphone but if that's the case, I wouldn't bother taking it outside of a studio. We expose our microphones to conditions and events young children are usually not able to attend and excellent recordings are made.

The NT4 is neat looking but I think there are better microphones you can shop around for. That mic would be better used in a studio for a guitar or folly work...I have heard great audience recordings from it, though. If you're interested in single point stereo, check out the Studio Projects LSD-2.

I tend to agree here.  Many years ago I worked in a large scoring facility both as a stage asst. and mixer.  We had a walk-in mic closet with several hundred K worth of now vintage mics - all the majors.  Some would be shocked at the "handling" these work horses could take.  Used day in and day out, set up and down on two stages with sometimes two sessions a day.  They continued to sound great, we had very little failures or sonic issues with them compared to the use and abuse some received - some very good sounding scores came out of these mics in very rough service for over a decade.

[ArchivalAudio]

ok just slightly of the $1G point but the Milab VM 44 links are a great contender.
or if you dont need the actives
 the VM 44 classics
If you talk to a rep (mine's Ron V) at Full Compass you get a much better deal then the web pricing
http://www.fullcompass.com/product/362416.html
http://www.fullcompass.com/product/337331.html

my VM-44 links were about $1200 for the pair....

aroundd the holidays full compass usually runs a special 12 months 0% interest- with thier card- via GE capitol but you can spend a bit more with no interest... get more than you can afford now!

check out the team boards:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=114343.0

peace thru music

[Scooter123]

Ditto on buying used.  Buy from a guy with a lot of posts, and you'll know he took care of the mics--most guys here handle them like eggs. 

Personally, I would start with some used Church Mikes, some cards, and get a handle on taping protocol, figure out what you don't like about the sound, then save money and move up to a decent preamp and boutique mikes from there. 

Location and Luck play a bigger part than any equipment purchase in taping.  I've had great mikes which sound like shit under a balcony, and great tapes with crappy mikes in the sweet spot, and have had both great mikes and a sweet spot and the recording ruined by near by drunks. 

As one guy said, save your money for good tickets. 

[Belexes]

Location and Luck play a bigger part than any equipment purchase in taping.

Sage advice. I completely agree.

[SmokinJoe]

Taste in sound is like taste in ice cream.  I like vanilla, but you might like maple walnut, and I can't stand the stuff.  That doesn't mean you are wrong, just that you have different tastes. I like "detailed" sound and gravitate towards detailed gear.  Other people want "silky smooth".  Until you get an idea of what you actually like, I wouldn't spend large sums of money.

The other thing to keep in mind is that some mics and preamps go together like peanut butter and jelly, and some don't.   To me, it's the combo that makes the sound, not just the mic.  Once you pick your mics, make sure you choose a pre that sounds good with those mics.  AKG480's are good mics with some pres.  An M248 pre is great with some mics, but I don't like AKG480's with an M248 as a combo.

Ref... buying used... I currently own, and have owned, lots of different mics.  I've bought almost all of them from the Yard Sale, or from our "Team suppliers" like Church Audio, and I wouldn't do it any other way.  Buying used off Ebay can be sketchy, but buying from the yard sale is a completely different story.  If someone has a good history here and can supply samples "These exact mics made this recording on the archive", then it's pretty safe.  If you can't get samples or the guy seems sketchy, then perhaps it's best to be cautious.

Personally, I don't think the upgrade bug is a bad thing, at least not for some people.  I've been through a lot of different gear in the last few years, and that's how I've learned what works for my tastes.  It can be an expensive game of trial and error, but it doesn't always have to be.  You buy a set of C4's or Nak 300's for $200 and then want to upgrade... chances are you can sell those C4's for $200 (or maybe $175) a while later and you haven't taken a big loss.  That's not always the case with all gear, but with some gear it is.

[raymonda]

Excellent advice and options. I would agree with buying used and recording from a good seat. I would also add one more mic to your choice. If you are doing open taping and don't mind larger mics, then the LD multi pattern ADK A51TL are an absolute steel. You can usually buy a used pair for around $500. These are by far one of my favorite mics and performs better than other budget mics and as good as many of the big boys.

I consistantly use them as spit omni's for multitrack on location jobs. They are a main stay at the Homer Center for the Arts. If you attend a show there you will always see a spit omni pair of these up front at the stage lip. I have also used them on instruments and in various stereo configurations. They never disappoint.

Here are few shots of live recording sessions where they were used.

Along with the AKG460's these are mics you will keep forever.