Topic: PA too loud to tape?

[gmm6797]

OK, just got back from a kick ass Godsmack show... small(ish) theater with 3,200 seats... and a PA for a summer shed.

taped from the 3rd row right in front of the on-stage PA (they had a PA hanging from the ceiling for the balcony too) with the subs slightly to my left.

My Schoeps VMS02ib was on the -20db setting and my R09 was on 1 (yea, one) and I was still too hot.

I am no walking db meter, but I would assume over 120db.  I was talking to some other people there I knew (security) who said it was one of the loudest in this venue... and he was be doing shows there for 20+ years.

My left channel is almost all staticy in the high ends, right channel is not (assuming this is from the excessive power of the subs).  The right channel is better, but still a little too much for my ears.  In the lower volume spots all is OK

So... anyone have any suggestions on good gear (top to bottom) for taping LOUD as SHIT metal/nu-metal/heavy metal/80's metal shows?

I love my Schoeps, but not sure if they are the issue... I know the new Schoeps VMS5 has much better capacity, but it is not stealthy like the VMS02ib... and the R09 has not failed me yet.

Lets try and keep the discussions from Team Schpoes vs Team AKG vs Team <fill in the blank>.  Please just stake facts and reasoning.

Thanks.

PS- let me know if you want to hear a 30 second sample

[guysonic]

Sounds to me a problem with the mics or mic power supply, and maybe your into the deck adapter cable, not the R-09.

If the mics are rated for handling at least 135 dB SPL, then recording should be mostly clean unless for some reason your ATTEN switch on the mic is not working, or the connectors-cables and/or mic power supply has issues.

Time to do a dry run at home with phones on and see what is not working as it should.

[gmm6797]

I used the same exact setup as recently as 2 weeks ago with no issues (both open taping).

My normal BNC>1/8" cable is in the shop, I am using RS BNC>RCA females adapters into a RS high end (if there is such a beast) patch cable with gold tips... and have used this combo in the past with no issues.

Why would the softer songs be OK if something in the rig was malfunctioning?

[Kyle]

I was thinking power issue as well. I think that mics may exhibit a drop in SPL handling if there is a drop in voltage - correct me if I am wrong....

[shaggy]

I actually overloaded my vms02ib in a classical setting with it set at -30dB.  I think the SPL capacity of the vms02ib is limited compared to, lets say, a Lemosax.  I have run the vms02ib at the barrier of a large outdoor venue last year with mk21s...the subs were right in front and I was at -20dB.  There is some breaking up at times, all of this is the vms02ib not handling that insane of a signal.

I really love the sound of the vms02ib.  But to be honest, I have far less misses with the Lemosax.  Never overloaded the signal on that box.

Do you use NiMH in there?  I am wondering if it is underpowered that this might cause it.  I am using 2000mAH NiMH always.

[gmm6797]

I actually overloaded my vms02ib in a classical setting with it set at -30dB.  I think the SPL capacity of the vms02ib is limited compared to, lets say, a Lemosax.  I have run the vms02ib at the barrier of a large outdoor venue last year with mk21s...the subs were right in front and I was at -20dB.  There is some breaking up at times, all of this is the vms02ib not handling that insane of a signal.

I really love the sound of the vms02ib.  But to be honest, I have far less misses with the Lemosax.  Never overloaded the signal on that box.

Do you use NiMH in there?  I am wondering if it is underpowered that this might cause it.  I am using 2000mAH NiMH always.

I will admit I have assumed the VMS02 has been the issue on numerous occasions.

A friend loans me his VMS5u any time I want, but is is a lot harder to stealth as it has to be worn in a "fanny pack" under a coat to be hidden, where as my VMS02 hides well in my cargo pants pocket and I also look less obvious.

I am running NiMH batteries, 2200mAH that I have had excellent success with previously.  Not had the opertunity to run the VMS02 stealth with a Wal-Mart DVD battery to see if that would help.

What is the going rate for a Lemo these days?

Thanks for the incite!

[tod3sschu3tze]

well, i always tape loud metal shows, especially that hardcore-stuff
i think this is a good comparison

since i have my mm hlsc-1 with sennheiser capsules problems in regard to distortion completely disappeared.
my former tapes were recorded with the low sensitivity core sound binaurals, which distorted quite fast.
IMHO sometimes it is difficult to find the best mics with fulfill the split between good bass / distortion handling and still have trebles which are good enough.

[Church-Audio]

I used the same exact setup as recently as 2 weeks ago with no issues (both open taping).

My normal BNC>1/8" cable is in the shop, I am using RS BNC>RCA females adapters into a RS high end (if there is such a beast) patch cable with gold tips... and have used this combo in the past with no issues.

Why would the softer songs be OK if something in the rig was malfunctioning?

If the PA was really 120db witch I doubt your ears would still be ringing... 120 db is freaking loud I doubt if most of you have ever heard a concert that loud if you had you would never forget it. Most Sheds in the USA are very heavily regulated. They have a "db police" guy that stands over your shoulder and tells you to turn down. They do that once, after that its $500 to $5,000 per every 10-30 seconds of sustained violation they run a computer with SPL software that puts a time and date stamp on every infraction then they tap the bands management on the shoulder for the $$$ fine.

I would like others have mentioned suspect a power supply issue.

[gmm6797]

I have been wearing ear plugs (the foam type) since 1996 and have not had a ringing ear since.... and been wearing custom made ear plugs from an audiologist since November with even better results... so my ears dont ring either way.

I have a DB meter that I purchased in the fall and have used it at a few club shows and a few theater shows, and I have noticed that the peak in these smaller venues/shows is normally peaking around 105db (at least that what the meter is showing).

At this Godsmack show, my body and ears (with the plugs) felt significantly more pressure and power, but I didnt have the meter with me to check.

This was an indoor theater show on a Sunday night in a dead downtown on a holiday weekend... I do not believe the db level was something the band had to worry about.  All of my friends in security were issues ear plugs and Sully (the lead singer) even cracked on some people in the front row for wearing ear plugs by telling them they were smart.

Just my 2 cents... and I wish I could recreate the environment and test some other gear

[it-goes-to-eleven]

In my experience, running the r09 at trim setting 1 is a receipe for great disappointment:

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,84587.0.html

An inline attenuator to the r09 should help as long as the VMS isn't overloading.. It kinda sounds like it might be. Maybe try a line in test to the vms to reproduce the high levels?

I have a couple dino jr shows coming up and want to do some on-stage, so I've been giving a lot of thought to rig overloading..

[gmm6797]

In my experience, running the r09 at trim setting 1 is a receipe for great disappointment:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,84587.0.html
An inline attenuator to the r09 should help as long as the VMS isn't overloading.. It kinda sounds like it might be. Maybe try a line in test to the vms to reproduce the high levels?
I have a couple dino jr shows coming up and want to do some on-stage, so I've been giving a lot of thought to rig overloading..

Well I was stuck... as the VMS overload light was on and the R09 was clipping at the normal setting of 8.... it was a decision mad eon the fly which I thought was better than no recording at all

[Church-Audio]

I have been wearing ear plugs (the foam type) since 1996 and have not had a ringing ear since.... and been wearing custom made ear plugs from an audiologist since November with even better results... so my ears dont ring either way.

I have a DB meter that I purchased in the fall and have used it at a few club shows and a few theater shows, and I have noticed that the peak in these smaller venues/shows is normally peaking around 105db (at least that what the meter is showing).

At this Godsmack show, my body and ears (with the plugs) felt significantly more pressure and power, but I didnt have the meter with me to check.

This was an indoor theater show on a Sunday night in a dead downtown on a holiday weekend... I do not believe the db level was something the band had to worry about.  All of my friends in security were issues ear plugs and Sully (the lead singer) even cracked on some people in the front row for wearing ear plugs by telling them they were smart.

Just my 2 cents... and I wish I could recreate the environment and test some other gear

A db meter is a good thing to have when your taping shows. I think it sounds like you were in a very loud show.. I thought you were outdoors. More people that are into taping should have a db meter like you do so that they know at what level they can set there gear too with out distortion.. Very handy
And the funny thing is now they are so cheap they are almost disposable you can get one at RS for $30-$50.

Chris

[guysonic]

Most dB SPL meters have weighted response that gives 'average' readings. 

Bass energy is what overloads recordings, and I feel peak energy of bass can easily exceed 125 dB SPL with peaks approaching 135 dB SPL especially if near speakers and/or there's a resonate 'bass boom' effect at work.  Meters tend to miss peak bass intensity, but microphones (especially omni type) tend to output these very large bass signals regardless.

Very high intensity 'gut-sucking' low-frequency bass seems not to cause ear ringing, but does challenge the recording chain to not distort.

[Church-Audio]

Most dB SPL meters have weighted response that gives 'average' readings. 

Bass energy is what overloads recordings, and I feel peak energy of bass can easily exceed 125 dB SPL with peaks approaching 135 dB SPL especially if near speakers and/or there's a resonate 'bass boom' effect at work.  Meters tend to miss peak bass intensity, but microphones (especially omni type) tend to output these very large bass signals regardless.

Very high intensity 'gut-sucking' low-frequency bass seems not to cause ear ringing, but does challenge the recording chain to not distort.

Actually low frequencey distorts a mic just as much as high frequencey when we are talking about cardioid mics.. Low frequencey tend to distort omni mics because omni mics are omnidirectional and so is any acoustic energy below 200hz. So if you have a pair of cardioid mics you dont have the same overloading problems at low frequenceys as you do an omnidirectional microphone.


Most people think that slapping a high pass filter on a omnidirectional mic solves this problem... It does not.. Because this distortion is happening at the FET level of the mic capsule and is also in some cases a physical limitation of some omnidirectional microphones * back plate * bottoming out on the diaphragm.. or compression distortion from the diaphragm not having enough of a volume of air inside it to allow for a higher compliance of the diaphragm it self. That is why most of the high end omni mics that use a true capacitor capsule create a high pass filter by slapping a cap across the output of the capacitor capsule this is one method to reduce the bottom end before it gets to the first fet stage of the microphone thus reducing its distortion.
With small electret mics this is not possible unless you open up the capsule and place a cap across the back plate and ground. DPA has found a way to increase the max SPL of the 4061 with out having to reduce low end by using a cap.
Chris

[guysonic]

Live venue overloads tend to be from the low bass frequency content because most of the energy (75-95%) resides in the lower two octaves. 

Directional mics by nature have considerable less response in these octaves due to common mode effect (back of the diaphragm is open to sound) that's the heart the mics ability to reflect off axis sound.  As a result, directional mics physical diaphragm moves far less than a pressure type omni with totally sealed off back-of-diaphragm construction.

Choice of diaphragm material/thickness and placed distance from the fixed back plate (the 'other' plate of the capacitor) determines maximum sound pressure handling and sensitivity and some other important characteristics.   

Designs are always compromises where a thick diaphragm increases loudness ability by not moving so far and will also have less signal output and reduced high frequency response.  Moving the diaphragm closer to the back plate increases signal output, at the expense of lower loudness handling, and likely increase in non-linear distortions.  And so it goes for quite a number of physical/electrical capsule parameters that effect each other. 

And then there's another set of considerations on how the capsule is mounted and the acoustic (coloration) effects of the mic (case) body and input port(s) (grill/slots/holes/mesh, and so on).

For what I can tell, it seems Pop/Rock needs mics handing at least 125 dB SPL, and at least 135 for very metal rock or so it seems.  Percussion and at times bass instruments can produce fast very intense sounds (peaks) that don't look like much on an average sound meter.  An oscilloscope waveform or a very good peak meter gives chance of viewing these peaks.   If a mic cannot handle the peak SPLs, then the recorded bass sound is less clear (muddy, lacks definition).

Directional mics by nature can have both high sensitivity in mid bass to higher octaves, with ability to resist bass peak SPL overload because the diaphragm is just not moving as much (bass cancellation from common mode due to open back) at those frequencies.

Personally I like sealed back transducers (pressure omni mics/acoustic suspension speakers) for having much more accurate low bass transient response (tighter drum/percussion/powerful punchy bass guitar).

Open back transducers tend to smear low frequency transient detail (over frequency phase shifting) so low bass percussive sounds are less immediate and less concise sounding.  In other words, I'm quite convinced percussive sounds lose synchronicity with ported speakers, and same for directional microphones

So I stick to using acoustic suspension bass speakers and pressure omni mics for at least this reason.