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Author Topic: SBD/AUD Matrix Pitch Question  (Read 5444 times)

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Offline rockymtnryan

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SBD/AUD Matrix Pitch Question
« on: July 25, 2015, 11:55:15 AM »
So I'm playing around with making my first sbd/aud matrix and I seem to be having pitch issues, or at least that's what I think. I'm doing everything in WaveLab and I line up my 4 aud tracks in the audio montage which are perfectly in time since they're from the same deck. I add another stereo track which is the sbd and line up visually.

It starts out great, but towards the end of the 2hr set things get off. There's echo. If I go to the end of the set and line up visually there, then things don't start off right. Echo.

If this is a pitch issue, is it normally that the sbd needs to be pitched up or down? Stretched or shrunk? And how is that performed in the audio montage area of WaveLab?

Thanks in advance for any tips.

AKG CK61-ULS > Nbob actives > Nbox Platinum > Tascam DR-70D @ 24bit/96kHz
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Offline PH

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Re: SBD/AUD Matrix Pitch Question
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2015, 12:10:23 PM »
This is common. Two recordings will not ever lineup (unless by accident) unless they are recorded with the same deck and/or word clock is used to sync the two devices.

You will need to stretch one of the recordings to fit. If there are any glitches/skips, then that will cause it to unsync at that point.
I personally use Cubase 7 to perform this, but programs meant to sync video are usually easier to work with regarding syncing files.
Final Cut PRO will do this automatically for you. I think Vegas will do that as well. Doing it manually is a tricky procedure and takes quite a bit of practice to get it right.
Sometimes you have to just sync sections instead of entire file.

I do tons of these since I multi-track for-hire lots of gig for bands here in Nashville.
I always use my 4 track recorder (70D or R44) to capture my FOH mix and some Schoeps onstage or from FOH area.
I later have to sync this with the multi-tracks and wind up having to stretch the 70D recorded files every time. PITA.

I usually try to go up near the stage and make a really loud clap on the mics at the start/end of each set.
That way I have a reference point to sync my files to later.


Good luck, PM me if you need more help.
Cheers, Phil
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 12:11:54 PM by PH »

Offline boltman

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Re: SBD/AUD Matrix Pitch Question
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2015, 12:18:52 PM »
Did you have to join another file?  If so, there may be a small gap you didn't see.  Since you recorded this on one deck, there shouldn't be any drift.

Offline PH

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Re: SBD/AUD Matrix Pitch Question
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2015, 12:24:31 PM »
Did you have to join another file?  If so, there may be a small gap you didn't see.  Since you recorded this on one deck, there shouldn't be any drift.

If I understand correctly....The SBD wasn't recorded on the same deck, that's where the drift is coming from.

Offline rockymtnryan

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Re: SBD/AUD Matrix Pitch Question
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2015, 01:05:41 PM »
Did you have to join another file?  If so, there may be a small gap you didn't see.  Since you recorded this on one deck, there shouldn't be any drift.

If I understand correctly....The SBD wasn't recorded on the same deck, that's where the drift is coming from.

Exactly. My two pairs of AKGs went into my DR70D. The sbd files were sent to me by someone else. All 6 tracks were 24/96. So Final Cut Pro will automatically stretch the tracks that need it and match everything up? Might have to check that out.
AKG CK61-ULS > Nbob actives > Nbox Platinum > Tascam DR-70D @ 24bit/96kHz
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Offline rockymtnryan

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Re: SBD/AUD Matrix Pitch Question
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2015, 01:07:12 PM »
Final Cut Pro is just for Mac though right? I have a Windows system.
AKG CK61-ULS > Nbob actives > Nbox Platinum > Tascam DR-70D @ 24bit/96kHz
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Offline PH

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Re: SBD/AUD Matrix Pitch Question
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2015, 01:17:06 PM »
Final Cut Pro is just for Mac though right? I have a Windows system.

Pretty sure it's mac only, but Vegas works on PC I think. I'm sure if you look around a bit, you can find a "demo" version to try out.

Offline beatkilla

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Re: SBD/AUD Matrix Pitch Question
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2015, 01:20:13 PM »
I use Sony Vegas Pro for doing this,however i do all video / audio syncing manually,i could be mistaken as last i knew there were programs that would sync your file at one common point but NOT pitch shift,time stretch,shrink,etc.

Maybe that feature is available now?

Anyways it's really not very hard to with Sony Vegas,once you do it a few times.

Offline PH

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Re: SBD/AUD Matrix Pitch Question
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2015, 01:46:31 PM »
I use Sony Vegas Pro for doing this,however i do all video / audio syncing manually,i could be mistaken as last i knew there were programs that would sync your file at one common point but NOT pitch shift,time stretch,shrink,etc.

Maybe that feature is available now?

Anyways it's really not very hard to with Sony Vegas,once you do it a few times.

The new version of Final Cut Pro does this automatically for you now. I've seen it done with a dozen or more different file clips. Pretty incredible.

Offline morst

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Re: SBD/AUD Matrix Pitch Question
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2015, 06:06:08 PM »
The new version of Final Cut Pro does this automatically for you now. I've seen it done with a dozen or more different file clips. Pretty incredible.
Dang, that would be cool. I've been doing it manually for years: Here's an old set of instructions for Audacity.
http://morst.blogspot.com/2010/03/this-is-follow-up-of-sorts-to-my-post.html
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Offline tim in jersey

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Re: SBD/AUD Matrix Pitch Question
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2015, 12:53:51 AM »
You will need to stretch one of the recordings to fit.

DISCLAIMER: Purely anecdotal, non-scientific-in-any-way and nit-picking statement-

I've found that stretching the "shorter" (for lack of a better term) of the 2 recordings can *sometimes* add a few little bits of digi-noise here and there. Maybe 3 to 6 of them over the course of a 2 hour recording and they can be somewhat obvious to very subtle and they probably only bug me because I know they are there... I'm talking sub-1-second little snits.

Conversely and again, purely anecdotal, but IMHO and also IME throwing away a few samples from the "longer" recording by shrinking it doesn't *seem* to introduce these little bits of digi-noise nearly as much.

Hope this makes sense.

Offline PH

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Re: SBD/AUD Matrix Pitch Question
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2015, 01:21:26 AM »
I haven't noticed any noise from stretching files using Cubase 7, although I suppose it's possible.
Many times I'm doing extensive manipulation of studio tracks, stretching, bending, quantitizing, tuning, etc.... and haven't noticed much in the way of artifacts all, no matter what I do to them. Cubase is seriously bad-ass.
I hope they implement the auto-align feature that Final Cut Pro has in the next version.




You will need to stretch one of the recordings to fit.

DISCLAIMER: Purely anecdotal, non-scientific-in-any-way and nit-picking statement-

I've found that stretching the "shorter" (for lack of a better term) of the 2 recordings can *sometimes* add a few little bits of digi-noise here and there. Maybe 3 to 6 of them over the course of a 2 hour recording and they can be somewhat obvious to very subtle and they probably only bug me because I know they are there... I'm talking sub-1-second little snits.

Conversely and again, purely anecdotal, but IMHO and also IME throwing away a few samples from the "longer" recording by shrinking it doesn't *seem* to introduce these little bits of digi-noise nearly as much.

Hope this makes sense.

Offline bombdiggity

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Re: SBD/AUD Matrix Pitch Question
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2015, 12:35:13 PM »
You will need to stretch one of the recordings to fit.

DISCLAIMER: Purely anecdotal, non-scientific-in-any-way and nit-picking statement-

I've found that stretching the "shorter" (for lack of a better term) of the 2 recordings can *sometimes* add a few little bits of digi-noise here and there. Maybe 3 to 6 of them over the course of a 2 hour recording and they can be somewhat obvious to very subtle and they probably only bug me because I know they are there... I'm talking sub-1-second little snits.

Conversely and again, purely anecdotal, but IMHO and also IME throwing away a few samples from the "longer" recording by shrinking it doesn't *seem* to introduce these little bits of digi-noise nearly as much.

Hope this makes sense.

That seems to be consensus but I'm almost certain the presence of artifacts depends on the software used. 
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Offline Life In Rewind

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Re: SBD/AUD Matrix Pitch Question
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2015, 02:21:41 PM »
My approach has always been to alter the trackset that I planned to use the LEAST in the mix

Never had any artifacts though...
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: SBD/AUD Matrix Pitch Question
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2015, 03:14:08 PM »
My approach has always been to alter the trackset that I planned to use the LEAST in the mix
^^^
That's logical.

I typically shrink the longer file rather than stretch the shorter one-  Just as best practice, since in terms of information that's equivalent to reducing rather than enlarging an image.  Generally, one can't create new information to 'fill the gaps' as transparently and potentially artifact-free as discarding excess information, although it's questionable if it really matters or not since the change isn't usually all that large.


At the extreme, I've heard a few snippets from a gallery installation which featured playback of Beethoven's 9th Symphony stretched from it's typical ~70 minute performance length to a playback length lasting 24hrs.  Upon hearing this I immediately thought of these implications and the tools we use to do this on a much smaller scale, and wondered what software was used to make such an extreme time-stretch without introducing noticeable audible artifacts.  I specifically listened for artifacts and heard none in the short segments I heard over FM radio, but not sure if I'd pick out any listening to longer portions at the gallery.
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