Author Topic: New SDC pair for a semi-pro. Suggestions? (Read 8070 times)

jaycdunn · « **on:** November 15, 2009, 10:10:19 PM »

I just joined this forum. I've been a part-time recording engineer for many years. I call myself a "semi-pro" because I don't record every single day as a full-time job.

Anyway, I sold my pair of JW modded AKG 460's to TNJazz over on Gearslutz a few years ago. I really liked those mics... but I needed some cash at the time. I had just restored a pair of vintage Neumann U64u, which is partly how I justified selling the AKG's. I also told myself I'd replace them with a pair of Schoeps or DPA down the road.

So now I'm thinking about another pair of SDC's. I don't want to spend Schoeps or DPA money though. I'd like something good for both Phish concerts and smaller jazz gigs. Not sure I want to bring the delicate Neumann U64's to a Phish show. Whatever I get, I'm sure they'll be useful in the studio, but the primary use for this pair is live taping.

The first mic on my list is the Milab VM-44 Classic. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be disappointed with a pair of these. I've liked other Milab mics I've tried on studio sessions, and I've read good things about the VM-44.

The thing is, I can get a pair of Lauten Torch tube mics for 3 payments of around $450 from Sweetwater. They look bitchin', I've read mostly good things about the sound, and they come loaded with accessories, including a stereo bar. The external power supply would make my rig a little more bulky, but still, it's very tempting to pull the trigger on these.

Obviously there are a ton of other mics to consider, both tube and solid state. What else should I be looking at in the "$1,500 and under" category, or should I just get the Milabs? Or the Lautens?

My concert taping rig will likely be DACS Micamp (1 ru) --> Mytek 8x192 (1 ru) --> Edirol or Korg, etc... Or I may borrow my buddy's Sonosax if the DACS/Mytek is too much to haul around.

If I could get them on payments, I'd probably give the Neumann digital KM184's a try. Those are over $3,000 a pair though.

DSatz · « **Reply #1 on:** November 15, 2009, 10:31:40 PM »

If you like the U 64 very much, you may or may not like the KM 184[D]. It has the same midrange and low end but Neumann tweaked the treble a bit. I'd urge you to rent or borrow a pair of either their current analog or digital versions and try them out before taking any big financial leap.

The KM 64 / U 64 / KM 74 / KM 84 were highly accurate, nearly neutral-sounding cardioids, while the current generation of small Neumann cardioids add "a little extra something" to the high frequencies--not much, really, but enough to make one smile in some cases and not others. It may make an amateur singer sound more like a professional, but I record mainly professionals, and the sound is just not quite right to my ears.

I've owned KM 84s for 35+ years and still think that they're excellent microphones. I bought a pair of the (analog) KM 184 about five years ago, and sold them again rather quickly. Their electronics are better than those of the older microphones; it is what Neumann has done, openly and very much on purpose, to the high-frequency response of the capsule that I don't have a use for. The parallel with "Classic Coke" vs. "New Coke" comes to mind.

I work (very part-time) for Schoeps as an editorial consultant and translator, so be sure to take whatever I say with whatever size grain of salt you think is appropriate, knowing that. My opinions are strictly my own, of course; I'm posting as an independent engineer who owns and uses mainly Schoeps microphones but also a number of Neumann, AKG and Microtech Gefell condensers.

--best regards

jaycdunn · « **Reply #2 on:** November 15, 2009, 11:01:02 PM »

Thanks for the very helpful post, and I think I recognize you from Gearslutz or 3D as well.

I've never used the U64's to record a whole band, but I've heard a club gig (from the Baked Potato) recorded with them that sounded pretty nice. The modded 460's are hotter and have more low end than the U64's. The less low-end part is fine with me, as large PA's are overly boomy anyway. I just don't know if I want to risk flying with the vintage Neumanns or taking them to a large concert, being as they're virtually irreplaceable.

I found no info on the Lautens here on this forum, but the comments on Gearslutz were mostly positive. And the Milabs seem to be a step above the Beyerdynamic MC 930's. I'm in no hurry to buy anything, so comments and suggestions from everybody on this forum are welcome.

Fried Chicken Boy · « **Reply #3 on:** November 16, 2009, 01:30:34 AM »

I know what you mean about not wanting to bring a set of vintage Neumanns to a concert; too much potential for something to happen to them. You might want to take a look through this thread that popped up recently. Similar ideas/price point. >

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=129218.0

Good luck on your hunt.

jaycdunn · « **Reply #4 on:** November 16, 2009, 02:06:21 AM »

Yeah you're right, it's too risky to bring the old Neumanns. They're just little things, too fragile. I'll get something I don't have to worry about losing so much. Those Lautens even come with premium Gotham cable and both cardioid and omni caps. I'm still leaning towards those or maybe the Milabs.

illconditioned · « **Reply #5 on:** November 16, 2009, 10:36:37 AM »

Quote from: jaycdunn on November 16, 2009, 02:06:21 AM

Yeah you're right, it's too risky to bring the old Neumanns. They're just little things, too fragile. I'll get something I don't have to worry about losing so much. Those Lautens even come with premium Gotham cable and both cardioid and omni caps. I'm still leaning towards those or maybe the Milabs.

I don't know about these Lautens, but could they be (rebranded) Chinese mics? Personally I would stick with known brands, AKG, Neumann, Beyerdynamic, etc.

The other interesting possibility is getting some Chinese oem mics, but under the AKG or Audio Technica brand name. I expect better quality control in this case.

My own view is that Beyerdynamic MC930 are excellent for club/PA recording. Pretty good deal too...

Richard

jaycdunn · « **Reply #6 on:** November 16, 2009, 12:07:46 PM »

I'm pretty sure the Lautens are not simply re-branded Chinese mics. I'll find out. A lot of the mics on the market these days do use Chinese-made capsules. A friend of mine who designs and builds pro audio gear says this is not always a bad thing. One Chinese company he deals with has very good quality control actually. A friend of his rebuilds the electronics of one of these Chinese mics. I believe he said that the Chinese company was interested in this, and is now marketing the rebuilt mics as their own higher end product.

In any event, I'm still keeping my options open. Maybe I can get a 3-payment deal on those Milabs... hint hint.

illconditioned · « **Reply #7 on:** November 16, 2009, 01:12:21 PM »

Quote from: jaycdunn on November 16, 2009, 12:07:46 PM

I'm pretty sure the Lautens are not simply re-branded Chinese mics. I'll find out. A lot of the mics on the market these days do use Chinese-made capsules. A friend of mine who designs and builds pro audio gear says this is not always a bad thing. One Chinese company he deals with has very good quality control actually. A friend of his rebuilds the electronics of one of these Chinese mics. I believe he said that the Chinese company was interested in this, and is now marketing the rebuilt mics as their own higher end product.

In any event, I'm still keeping my options open. Maybe I can get a 3-payment deal on those Milabs... hint hint.

There are lots of companies rebranding/upgrading Chinese mics. Some of the best known are Studio Projects and ADK. These companies produce great mics. They have excellent quality control and service. I've used both ADK and SP and think they are great mics.

What I'm saying is if you're going to pay top dollar, you should get a name brand (not Chinese) product. For budget needs there are some great options, but for top price I would stick to the established companies.

I mentioned Beyerdynamic since I feel they are a great deal. There new prices are very affordable. The others, Neumann, AKG or Scheops, have excessive new prices, but you can find excellent used deals here. Oh yeah, I think the best mics are Geffel 200 series. Those would be a reasonable new purchase as well. Notice how those rarely come up for sale here

.

Richard

jaycdunn · « **Reply #8 on:** November 16, 2009, 02:43:51 PM »

The Gefells aren't cheap though. One nice thing about my Neumanns is that they share a single power supply. Still, a pair of +48V mics would be one less thing requiring battery power. So I'll probably grab the Milabs, the Beyers, or maybe even a cheap pair of Sennheisers.

Fried Chicken Boy · « **Reply #9 on:** November 17, 2009, 02:44:51 AM »

Quote from: illconditioned on November 16, 2009, 01:12:21 PM

There are lots of companies rebranding/upgrading Chinese mics. Some of the best known are Studio Projects and ADK. These companies produce great mics. They have excellent quality control and service. I've used both ADK and SP and think they are great mics.

There's also the Busman BSC1's; great bang for the buck with the different capsules and accessories. They have many fans in this forum and elsewhere and lots of recordings on the LMA.

Seeing as you liked the sound of your AKG sdc's, you might want to look into the Audio-Technica AT4021 or, if you can find them, their discontinued predecessor, the AT3031. Japanese made and, IMO, fantastic sounding especially considering the price. Also, quite a few recordings with the AT3031's on the LMA, particularly by taper Spyder9

On paper, the Lautens sound very promising and the reviews I've found are good: a pair of tube condensers with two sets of caps for $1400 sounds like an amazing deal. But not being very familiar with them (read: at all) I'd be really interested in hearing some recordings with them.

Aside from the Lautens, the other mics I mentioned are all far under your budget. With the more expensive mics you generally know what to expect, they're known to be of high quality and tend to have long-standing and well-deserved reputations. Many people will contend that the Japanese and Chinese mics are not in the same league as the Schoeps, Milabs, Beyers, etc. Could be, but to repeat what's been stated many times in this forum, you'll hear a myriad of different opinions on what people feel sound the best. It's in the ears of the beholder.

bloud · « **Reply #10 on:** November 17, 2009, 01:04:16 PM »

Hopefully I'm allowed to jump here.

illconditioned

I certainly understand most people thinking that everything new and at this price point is rebranded Chinese. What I can say is, we start from a blank slate with every mic. Everything from the transformer windings, to tube selection, to diaphragm tension, dampening, body etc is designed by the Lauten crew here in the U.S. Partly why you only see 4 mics in the Lauten line; it takes time to design a mic from the ground up. Now, of course the general capsule designs etc are based on technology from 50+ years ago. We haven't entirely reinvented the pressure gradient capsule... yet. But it is our “flavor” in there and not a copy of anything else.

Regarding quality control; we almost over do it. Every mic (not a random selection) and component (e.g. down to the shock mount wing-nut etc) is tested in multiple stages.

jaycdunn

We've had a couple people take the Torches on the road. The PSU's and the mics themselves are quite durable. But you are right you have the addition of PSU's and the 7-Pin Gotham cables. The Gotham cable itself is very durable; the pins on the 7-pin Neutriks are more fragile than a 3-pin XLR etc. But everything will fit back into the carrying and transport quite nicely.

Interesting discussion folks...

jaycdunn · « **Reply #11 on:** November 17, 2009, 01:48:43 PM »

I'm definitely interested in the Torches for the studio. For concert taping I'll probably go with some +48V mics though

BTW I read one of the Torch reviews linked from your site, the one where the reviewer said you should re-work the omni capsules, but he really liked the cardioid caps. Too bad a real review like that is rarely written in an English speaking magazine. Usually it's a fluff piece, you know... "Hey, they're giving me a pair of these mics, they're great, you should buy them". So props for putting an actual critical review on your site.

bloud · « **Reply #12 on:** November 17, 2009, 02:31:14 PM »

Quote from: jaycdunn on November 17, 2009, 01:48:43 PM

I'm definitely interested in the Torches for the studio. For concert taping I'll probably go with some +48V mics though

BTW I read one of the Torch reviews linked from your site, the one where the reviewer said you should re-work the omni capsules, but he really liked the cardioid caps. Too bad a real review like that is rarely written in an English speaking magazine. Usually it's a fluff piece, you know... "Hey, they're giving me a pair of these mics, they're great, you should buy them". So props for putting an actual critical review on your site.

Someday we'll have a set of phantom powered SDC's. I know what I want to accomplish, we just haven't got there yet.

Re: review: No point and hiding an opinion. Microphones opinions are so subjective. He is a very knowledgeable reviewer and asks the right questions. After receiving a new set of Omni's I believe his mind was changed, but you know once in print that's it. They did end up making the "best of list" for upper class mics though.

jaycdunn · « **Reply #13 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:15:34 PM »

Yeah that reviewer certainly knew his physics and capsules, etc...

Good luck on the +48V mic. I know it's a compromise, but it can be done.

illconditioned · « **Reply #14 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:17:56 PM »

Quote from: bloud on November 17, 2009, 01:04:16 PM

Hopefully I'm allowed to jump here.

illconditioned

I certainly understand most people thinking that everything new and at this price point is rebranded Chinese. What I can say is, we start from a blank slate with every mic. Everything from the transformer windings, to tube selection, to diaphragm tension, dampening, body etc is designed by the Lauten crew here in the U.S. Partly why you only see 4 mics in the Lauten line; it takes time to design a mic from the ground up. Now, of course the general capsule designs etc are based on technology from 50+ years ago. We haven't entirely reinvented the pressure gradient capsule... yet. But it is our “flavor” in there and not a copy of anything else.

Regarding quality control; we almost over do it. Every mic (not a random selection) and component (e.g. down to the shock mount wing-nut etc) is tested in multiple stages.

Well, it is good to see companies listening. In particular, people who design the mics. Thanks for the input.

Richard

bloud · « **Reply #15 on:** November 17, 2009, 06:19:17 PM »

Quote from: illconditioned on November 17, 2009, 03:17:56 PM

Well, it is good to see companies listening. In particular, people who design the mics. Thanks for the input.

Richard

No problem. and If I were in the market for a pair of FET SDC's to tour with, I would look to Schoeps or DPA.

TNJazz · « **Reply #16 on:** November 17, 2009, 06:37:22 PM »

Take this suggestion with a grain of salt as well.

Nevaton MC49

I do rep them, but the reason I do is that I bought a pair on my own dime and liked them so much that I wanted to work with them.

I will never sell my pair (unless of course the 2012 prophecy comes true!)

dactylus · « **Reply #17 on:** November 17, 2009, 08:24:22 PM »

Quote from: TNJazz on November 17, 2009, 06:37:22 PM

Take this suggestion with a grain of salt as well.

Nevaton MC49

I do rep them, but the reason I do is that I bought a pair on my own dime and liked them so much that I wanted to work with them.

I will never sell my pair (unless of course the 2012 prophecy comes true!)

^^
Agreed on the Nevaton MC49's!!

jaycdunn · « **Reply #18 on:** December 18, 2009, 10:07:52 PM »

Those Nevatons look bitchin' and one day I'll own a pair. Dual diaphragm huh? Cool. But for now, I've been looking at which SDC pairs I can get from Sweetwater on that 3-month payment deal. Maybe I'll just grab a pair of Shure KSM137 or SP C4. That way I'll have something decent enough but won't have to worry about them too much.

jaycdunn · « **Reply #19 on:** December 20, 2009, 12:04:56 AM »

I've decided to get a Shure A27M mount instead of a horizontal stereo bar. It seems better to me, plus it should mount directly onto the Manfrotto BAC1004 stand, as both have 5/8" thread. I'm still thinking about trying that Omni-Mid-Side recording technique, we'll see. Either that or just a pair of cards in NOS or DIN.

johnw · « **Reply #20 on:** December 20, 2009, 12:13:13 AM »

Quote from: jaycdunn on December 20, 2009, 12:04:56 AM

I've decided to get a Shure A27M mount instead of a horizontal stereo bar. It seems better to me, plus it should mount directly onto the Manfrotto BAC1004 stand, as both have 5/8" thread. I'm still thinking about trying that Omni-Mid-Side recording technique, we'll see. Either that or just a pair of cards in NOS or DIN.

i don't think that stand has a 5/8" thread, but it does have a 5/8" stud. You're gonna need the rapid adapter if you want to use an A27M. AFAIK none of the Bogen/Manfrotto stands have a 5/8" thread although some do have the 3/8" thread. If you want a 5/8" thread, you will need to look into the Shure stand or order one from APIC.

jaycdunn · « **Reply #21 on:** December 20, 2009, 01:56:57 AM »

Okay I'm glad I asked, because I wasn't sure about that. I've never used a lighting stand for a microphone before. Thanks!

So does Shure have a lightweight stand that's good for concert taping? And what does APIC stand for? That's all the newb questions I'll ask for now.

[edit] Ah, I see the Shure S15A stand must be what you're talking about. How does it compare with the Manfrotto? [end edit]

johnw · « **Reply #22 on:** December 20, 2009, 09:52:33 AM »

I've never owned the Shure stand, so I can't comment on it, but there are reviews on the B&H site. It is designed to do what we do, so I'd say it probably works ok. I do have a small APIC stand, and I like it. They didn't have a website at the time, and the site I found kind of sucks. I'd definitely call them - they can do a custom stand pretty much however you want.

As far as stands go, you have to find the balance between maximum height and folded closed length. More sections usually keeps the closed length down but I've found that more sections decreases stability at greater heights.

Here's APIC's site

http://estore.conceptheaven.com/clients/apic/estore/scripts/default.asp

SmokinJoe · « **Reply #23 on:** December 20, 2009, 10:34:59 AM »

I have a Shure S15a stand and it's pretty solid and light weight, but the twist locks are kind of a pain in the ass. If you can buy a used one cheap, go for it, but if you are paying top dollar for a new one, I'd go for something else. There are a ton of "light stands" available on Ebay for $50 or less which make great mic stands. Get one with a 1/4-20 or 3/8-16 thread at the top and then get the little adapter for 5/8-27 for your Tbar.

jaycdunn · « **Reply #24 on:** December 20, 2009, 01:35:56 PM »

Yeah I've read some reviews on the Shure S15A stand. A few people had issues with the adjustments on the telescoping sections. In another thread on here, someone said their Manfrotto aluminum stand fell apart piece by piece over time. Whatever I get, I need it to arrive by Saturday December 26th at the latest. B&H has a big discount on 3-day shipping, so I'll probably order from them.

I've bought some pretty expensive studio gear over the years, so $150 for a mic stand isn't a big deal for me. I'm not rich or anything, just saying...

Also, apparently the SP C4 mics now come with a pretty nice stereo bar. So if I order those, I may not need the Shure A27M for now. I've got to decide on all this stuff and place my order(s) today. If I try the Omni-Mid-Side technique, I will be mounting 1 Royer SF-12 (I've got the Royer shockmount for it too) and 1 AKG 414. I'm pretty sure the A27M will accomodate that configuration. It would be the Royer on bottom with the AKG on top, in what looks similar to a Blumlein setup.

jaycdunn · « **Reply #25 on:** December 22, 2009, 05:00:52 PM »

I think I'm gonna try a pair of the Shure KSM137. They're $600/pair, which is only $200/mo for 3 months at Sweetwater. Supposedly has a discrete class a output stage, and the frequency curves look pretty good actually.

jaycdunn · « **Reply #26 on:** December 22, 2009, 08:13:31 PM »

Ah, I see that the KSM141 pair is only $200 more. Those look pretty sweet. Good advice! That's only about $70 per month on the payment plan. Looks like they're not in stock right this moment though.

In any event, if I don't manage to put some cash in my account by tomorrow morning, it looks like I won't be able to get the KSM137 pair in time for the Miami shows either. In that case I'm not sure what I'll be bringing. I wonder how much juice my Neumann U64 power supply requires? I'll have to ask Bill Bradley.

[edit] Even if I could power them, the cables I've got for my U64's are stupid long. I'll have to go with something else. [end edit]

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #27 on:** December 23, 2009, 07:00:46 AM »

I'd seriously consider the Beyer rec.
http://www.beyerdynamic-usa.com/en/music-performance/products/microphones/studio-mikrofon.html

nice, warm mics. would excel in a studio, I would think.