Topic: Tricky Balcony Recording Advice

[jb63]

Here's an easy one for the pros:

I have some upcoming Rock Shows that I'll be taping from the front row balcony.
I have 3 mics to choose from and am only bringing 2 decks.

I can run Neil's old set, with either
SP-CMC-2 (AT-831's)
AT935QMRx (AT-853's)
through the
SP-SB1-SL (Batt Box)

Or I can run my trusty Sonic Studios DSM6-L set. (I could run this through the PA-6LC3B, but I've never noticed it to be necessary from this distance)

Or I can run DPA 4061s (CSHEB's)

Problem is, I'll be slightly too far away from the PA to get the sound I'd like, but those are my only choices.
ANY advice would be great. I've done all of these from this location in the past, and the result is mildly successful in that I get a clear tape, but never the color I'd like.
The sacrifice is that I can't run anything large.

I've decided to run 2 Korg MR1s to keep things light, so the final question I have here is about the Sonics.
These were my favorite mics for years, and I have an Oade Mod M1 with the mic in mod that I used to use them with, but now that I'm switching to the Korg, can I use it to power them?
If I run it line in, even WITH the PA-6LC3B there isn't really enough gain to get a signal.

I'm sure that I could easily look up a lot of this info, but I'm sure these are things you guys could easily answer in moments!

Thanks (in advance) for any advice you have for me,

jb

[acidjack]

I'd personally go HEBs + AT 853s.  I think those are the best mics of the bunch. I love the Sonics too, but the powering issues you mention seem problematic; if you can't get proper levels running like in through the PA6LC3 into the M1, then I guess you have to leave it at home.  The HEBs, like any omni, aren't ideal from further back, but they're a great set of mics, and among the Audio Technica cardiod options, the 853s are better than the 831s. 

If I were only using one set of mics, it's a tough call, and it depends how you are mounting to the balcony, but I guess I'd say the 853s.  If I knew I could mount them right (e.g., to a "hard" balcony where there was a solid wall behind them, and where I could mount them away from talking and crowd noise, I'd probably just roll the HEBs.  I've done that myself a few times, mixing 4061s mounted like that mixed with hypers, and the results are quite nice.

Example here.  This is a 500-or-so person club. 4061s + beyerdynamic hypers from the balcony.  The DPAs were in PZM-style boundary mounts against a hard wall in front of the board.  www.nyctaper.com/?p=3151

[fmaderjr]

the final question I have here is about the Sonics.
These were my favorite mics for years, and I have an Oade Mod M1 with the mic in mod that I used to use them with, but now that I'm switching to the Korg, can I use it to power them?
If I run it line in, even WITH the PA-6LC3B there isn't really enough gain to get a signal.

The M1 was said to almost power the Sonics correctly, so that probably sounded fine to you. The Korg won't. According to guy, only the M10, D50, and Sharp MiniDiscs will power the Sonics perfectly.

If not enough gain line in, simply turn the Korg's plug in power off and run the mic into the battery box and then mic in on the Korg.

At some point, since the Sonics are your favorite mics, you may want to consider selling one the the Korgs and buying an M10. The M10 will power the Sonics perfectly.

[SmokinJoe]

When I think front row balcony, I think boomy sound, and controlling that boomy sound would factor into my decision.  I have run omnis split 1' and 2' from the balcony rail a couple of times, just as a test, and all the sound reflects off the walls and ceilings to the mics and timing is all wrong, and it's just not good.

If I were using omnis, I would use the 4061's or DSM6-L, and I would use my head/knee or something as a baffle.  Personally, I wouldn't be afraid to go with the DSM's > battery box > MR1 and flip the switch to Mic-in if you don't have a strong enough signal.  Then you know the mics are powered correctly and you are running mics you are familiar with.  If you have to crank the gain on the MR1 you might get some noise, but that that will never be heard over the voices of a thousand screaming wookies.

If the 853's have card caps, and are 3 wire/4.7kmod/phantom powered, I would consider them.  Imagine Cards taped to the rail in kind of an DIN pattern.  If they are 2 wire unmoded, they might brickwall and I wouldn't choose them, if they are omnis, you might as well choose 4061's and DSM6-L which are probably a little better omni.

There are no absolute right and wrong answers here... just opinions... and there is mine, based on similar gear I own.

[acidjack]

^^ All absolutely true.

I think what SmokinJoe is describing re: the omnis is the same thing I said - if you've got them baffled by something (in my example, flat against a wall) then you'll achieve much better results than if they're sort of just hanging out there with open air on all sides.  That will sound bad.  This is perhaps another reason I recommend going with the HEBs over the Sonics here - the odd shape of the Sonics would seem to make it harder to do that (since they are quite clearly designed to be headworn) whereas with the HEBs it's easy to tape them down properly.  If you can, try to make sure the little gold square inside has one of its "faces" turned out.  At least according to the instruction manual that comes with DPAs boundary mounts, this does make a difference when boundary mounting these mics.  You can see inside through the grids if you look closely.

[jb63]

I love this place.
I would hang out here all day if I could.

I'll digest this stuff and be back with some more questions, I'm sure...

Thanks!

[jb63]

The HEBs, like any omni, aren't ideal from further back, but they're a great set of mics, and among the Audio Technica cardiod options, the 853s are better than the 831s. 

If I were only using one set of mics, it's a tough call, and it depends how you are mounting to the balcony, but I guess I'd say the 853s.

OK.
Thanks guys, I made sense of all of that and am about ready to roll.
Here is my last question. The Audio Technica mics i'm using are Neil's old ones here:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=132368.msg1737939

I'm using the Bodies of the SP-CMC-2 (AT-831's) and the SP-SB1-SL as the battery box, so I can switch the caps back and forth.
I tried only a few tapes with the AT935QMRx (AT-853 cards) caps, but I wasn't as impressed as I was with the SP-CMC-2 caps. The tapes were in a small room (Tonic, in NYC), but the bands were pretty loud.

If I'm reading what you are saying correctly, you are telling me that the AT935QMRx is the better choice in this situation?

j.

[Belexes]

Cardioids or hypers from a balcony. Omni's are too risky being that far from the sound source indoors.

[jb63]

Cardioids or hypers from a balcony. Omni's are too risky being that far from the sound source indoors.

For those interested in all this, here is a tape made from the front center balcony of the Bergen County Performing Arts Center in Engelwood, New Jersey.
The balcony was WAY too far away for it to come out OK, but the tape sounds better than the show did.

http://www.mediafire.com/?tm5v78oq9b98r

Tape: SP-CMC-2 (AT-831's) > SP-SB1-SL > Oade Mod SBM-1 > M1
Transfer: M1 > Onkyo SE-U55 > Sound Studio > xACT

What you're saying is that I should have used the Cards, then? (the AT935QMRx caps)

I want to be able to get a better tape than this capture. Only 1 of the upcoming shows, the one in Akron, has the Mezz as far away as it was in Bergen. See this post here, and yes, you're all invited:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=138803.msg1797516

For the Bergen show, the mics were over the lip of the balcony, which was bigger than most tabletops, and flush against the cement wall, so that was optimal, given the choices.

For last year's AWATS show, I did the same thing in Akron, but with the DPA4061. If I read acidjack's post right, I should carefully inspect those caps to make sure the "faces" are turned out and I might get a slightly better capture than this:

http://www.mediafire.com/?b7csabscb2qnt

Source: DPA 4061 > Core Sound Battery Box (rolloff filter ON) > Oade Modified SBM-1 (Line In) > PCM-M1 @ 48kHz
Transfer: Master DAT in PCM-R500 > Onkyo SE-U55 > Sound Studio (track splits) > xACT (fix SBE, FLAC level5)

I also ran the Sonics at this show:

http://www.mediafire.com/?z3mar04wy63sa

Source: Sonic Studios DSM6-L > Sonic Studios PA-6LC3B (-65db bass filter) > Korg MR-1 (Line In) > DFF file
Transfer: Audiogate (to 16/44 aiff) > Sound Studio (track splits, DC Offset) > xACT (fix SBE, FLAC level5) 

if you turn them just right, they make a good directional pattern.

My only real complaint about the way I'll be taping this year is that all my mic choices are going to be going straight into Korg MR-1s, and while I like them a LOT, I really did get used to the sound color of the Modded SBM-1.

Anyway, any more input would be great from you guys.

Thanks for so much so far...

jb

[Belexes]

With 2 Korgs, you could at least run an omni and a card and see which comes out best. I have done that before with my decks.

My experience with omni's indoors is that you need perfect acoustics in the room and must be in the sweet spot when taping farther back from the sound source.  The closer you are with omni's indoors, the better.

[acidjack]

^^^ Yes.

As I said, I had some luck running 4061s in the manner I described (taped against the wall with the grids facing out).  But, that was in a room that has excellent acoustics.  I should also note that I was also running some hypercards as well, though the 4061 pull alone held its own pretty well.

I would consider not using that rolloff on the Coresounds.  With newer digital recorders it can have very unpredictable results.  You're better off going flat and dealing with it in post.

[jb63]

Ah!
Excellent.
I've only needed the Rolloff for the nearby Clapping, so hopefully the front row balcony will work for me here.
I'll probably bring in my PMD661 and try to run 3 rigs for fun, since I'm on my own for these gigs.
That way I can try all 3 of the choices, and have backups.

My only real regret about the stuff I have is that the PA-6LC3B has 3 settings, and the lowest choice is the -65db bass filter.
I don't really want ANY bass filter, but them's the breaks.

2 of the shows I'm doing will be standing in the center section of the floor, so I'll probably need the Rolloff on the cores for that. And I'll just have to cope with the screaming and whooping.

Thanks again you guys.
I'm on the road at 5 am!

j

[doodee]

The front row of the balcony has it's pros and cons. From a convenience standpoint (usually a cushy seat, no one standing in front of you, safe place to place your gear, nice view of the gig) it's all pro. From a sound standpoint, it can be varying levels of con.

Much depends on the layout, acoustics and configuration of the particular theatre. I have a venue I hit every once in a while and have taped a few shows from the front row of the balcony. In this particular theatre when you look over the balcony rail you're starin' at the top of the soundman's head so the front of the balcony is in a pretty good position distance wise from the stage. I found that the trick from this spot was clamping a boom arm to the balcony rail and hanging my mics down five or six feet. Made a very positive difference in the sound. Of course, you gotta be able to run open to do that and I didn't catch if that's your situation. I've never been able to experiment with anything but cards from this position.

[jb63]

Well.
At the very least it was interesting.
Had to eat 2 pricey tickets, got some good captures and some good captures of girls screaming.

Here's the best one:

Tape: AT935QMRx (AT-853 cards) > SP-SB1-SL (battery box) > Oade Ambient Mod PMD661 (24/96) > Sandisk 16GB Card
Transfer: Sound Studio (downsample down to 16/44, track splits, DC Offset) > xACT (fix SBE, FLAC level5)

http://www.mediafire.com/?rzncfl5sphcah

I'll get to the other tapes when I can, but this venue had THE best, direct sound, with the Mezz overhanging row 10 of the main floor and the stacks just right there pointing at us.
Over the lip were all sorts of great baffles and light stands and blocks and I was able to block the sound from pretty much all the nearby screamers until they stood up and leaned over the edge.

I won't get to make many more tapes this year, so getting this one means a lot to me.

Thanks for all the sage advice!

jb
__________________________
in case anyone is in the dark here:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=138803.msg1797516

and you can still catch the 2 shows I couldn't make it to:

http://www.sonsof1984.com

[Gutbucket]

As I said, I had some luck running 4061s in the manner I described (taped against the wall with the grids facing out).  But, that was in a room that has excellent acoustics.

In that case they were no longer omnidirectional, but something more like hemispherioidal, and also benefitted from the boundary mounting induced favoritism of direct sound over incident sound thing. Something like +6dB if I recall, which is alot.