Topic: The sound of Nak mics

[ts]

I agree with the statements he made about the sonic charactersitics, except the comments about the high 'splash' end bit and the mids 'edginess' bit.  The lows can be loose and undefined.  What I fucking hate to hear is that they are overrated!  What an opening to 'stir the pot'!  It is like saying the NY Yankees are overated!  They are simply the most loved and despised Baseball team in history due to their popularity.  Same applies to Naks.  They certainly have a 'flavor', all mics do...you are totally fooling youself if you believe the higher end stuff like Schoeps and Neumanns aren't 'flavored'.  Believe me, I have whored around the section looking for a patch from mics that will be most suitable for the hall or situation.  Back in the 80's, you didn't see Schoeps or Neumanns flying at every single show, BUT you could always find a pair of Naks or Senns (and they sounded worse than Naks in the section, IMHO).

Now check this shit out, leegeddy (Marc Kim) mods them to be like 'actives'.  So, are we gonna keep on hearing how much they 'suck' or how 'overrated' they are?  You can bet the FARM we are going to never hear the end of how overrated' they are now.  Why?  B/C not everybody has the dime to drop on those german mics.  The more choices we have, the more shit is gonna get taped, be it with a 'statue of liberty' RS vocal mic > WM-D3 or insert your favorite mic here > insert your favorite mic-pre here > insert your favorite D/A here or analog recording device here etc etc....

On another note, 'What made these have mass appeal?' would be the better rephrase of the question!  Rethink your statements and have better judgement before you start to piss the crowd off, stlgoat.  I think Nak did a great thing by introducing electret mics at a price that was most certainly affordable.  These mics HELPED MAKE the taping scene!  You are talking about a company with a major reputation back then, you think they would sully their name with an inferior sounding mic?  Look on ebay, they still fetch $200+ a pair!  Probably went up a tad bit now Marc is modding them.  Twenty year old plus garage sale 'colored' japanese  mics!  Only mics I know that hold value like that....well, you know...those german mics!  Need I say more?  Have you listened to the example I posted?  That show, if you need any reminding is nearly 20 years old!!!

I am venting....I do apologize.  I have had a rough week with my new job.  Off of my sopabox...(hops off).  Stlfan, this is all in jest, I hope you understand that words can be like little knives.  Be careful with the words you use, especially since you are a newB.

Hey Andy, I taped those shows too. Just dug out my dat copies from cassette. Haven't burned 'em to CD yet. I was towards the back of the OTS and was using the usual back then, CM304's>D5M. Did the New Years run too. Although my favorite New Years taping was '83, end of '86 was BIG fun, and Man this Nak talk is even more fun .
ts

Yes, it is STILL fun. I am so happy to hear that people who are on this board actually TAPED back then and have a better understanding of this Nak phenominon.   I taped at one of the very first GD shows where there was a sanctioned taping section, BCT 10/28/1984!

Tony, you should transfer the show 12/15/1986 show and get it up.  The reason I seeded it was there was no audience of 12-15-1986 circulating in the digital age.  I remedied that, and for that I am proud of my past Nak heritage.  I actually like that tape alot too...it has the most atmospheric Nak sound I have ever heard; could be the 10 feet seperation between the mics! 

ANDY

Andy, I just listened to some of my masters from that run and New Years. There not bad. Not as upfront sounding as yours, but hey, you were upfront and I wasn't. Can't wait to get my Frankens. Oh yea, how do you get a show up on archive?

[charles]

Where did stlram go anyway. Seems to have faded off as this thread has developed and support has built up. Hmmmmm?

[Mark]

I've been running Nak's (CM300's) for about 2yrs now, and really like the sound, but then again, I don't have the budget or the annual use to justify upgrading.  BTW: I might be selling my rig soon for anyone interested in a full Nak set up, I have all but the CP-3.  Also have a friend that might be selling a field mod MX100.  ( I sold it to him, so I know the history of the pre).

[Mark]

I didn't read all the posts here, and will when I sober up..........but the Nak's I own, with the rig I run, is both affordable and very listenable to my ears in my basement where my "studio" is located.  Bash the Nak's all yo like......for each his own.  Do they compete with a $$$$ rig, nope.  Do they sound good to me for what i paid, hell yeah!!  If you don't like em, don't download the torrent that is of the Nak source.  No need for negativity, sure there is better, but there is also worse, such as no tape of the show you might have attended.  Hmmmmmmmm, think about it.

[jimmc]

JDS, it is true.  The CM-100s have less of the overdrivng bass than the CM-300s.  In fact, those of you who DL'd the 12-15-1986 show will note the absence of the thundering bass...no lo cut was employed....but we were using a pair of CM-100s!

Jazzunit , good point on the attenuation!  Many of the non-Dead realted up front shows suffer from this problem.  Need the -10dB cut or the max SPLs was in the 120dB range. 

+T to you all for chiming in.  Naks still have a place in our community.

I've been running Naks for about a year and I love them.  I decided to buy mine from hearing the recordings made by Mark (the post in front of mine here). I just bought some SP C4's, but I'm not gonna sell my CM300's until I'm positive I want to always run these instead of my Naks. I love my Naks enough to hold them when I could use the money for other things.

One thing I'd love to hear more insight about is the talk of using the -10dB cut. I havent been using it w/ my rig, but I've been very pleased w/ the results so far. Someone on page 2 of this thread even posted my 10-27-04 moe. show as an example of some Nak recrodings. Basically, can someone talk more about this in easy to understand terms ?  I might be taping tonight, maybe I'll switch the -10dB on to see what it sounds like.
Is the -10dB being on ideal in all situations, or just certain locations (FOB, stage lip...).
Thanks in advance for anything on this topic.
Go team Nak !!
Jim

[leegeddy]

I've been running Naks for about a year and I love them.  I decided to buy mine from hearing the recordings made by Mark (the post in front of mine here). I just bought some SP C4's, but I'm not gonna sell my CM300's until I'm positive I want to always run these instead of my Naks. I love my Naks enough to hold them when I could use the money for other things.

One thing I'd love to hear more insight about is the talk of using the -10dB cut. I havent been using it w/ my rig, but I've been very pleased w/ the results so far. Someone on page 2 of this thread even posted my 10-27-04 moe. show as an example of some Nak recrodings. Basically, can someone talk more about this in easy to understand terms ?  I might be taping tonight, maybe I'll switch the -10dB on to see what it sounds like.
Is the -10dB being on ideal in all situations, or just certain locations (FOB, stage lip...).
Thanks in advance for anything on this topic.
Go team Nak !!
Jim

my limited experience with the cm300s is via my Franken-Naks, which require P48 so the following may not apply to the normal cm300s.  i have not engaged the 10dB pad since i was getting clean normal levels in a heavy bass show (STS9).

imho, the P48 powering really opens up the capabilities of these mics.

btw, is there a Team Nak in the Team Forum? i searched and searched.....

marc

[jimmc]

btw, is there a Team Nak in the Team Forum? i searched and searched.....

marc

I've never looked either. I was just kind of being a smart-ass. It comes easy to me. 
I'll start one right now.
Jim

[ts]

Yes Marc, the 48V mod on my CM1000's did the same.

[stlram]

thanks for the input. it appears most folks agree wirh me, outside of the midrange i discribed, so i guess my hearing is pretty much spot on. btw, idon't have any problem with folks using them or enjoying the. i just wanted to know whether others were hearing the same.

since i raised this question some folks took to being critical towards me by marginalizing my question and questioning my experience. as if experience really means anything.  'from the nouth of babes you often get the truth".

anyway, as i have indicated i have been taping since 1982 and have mastered over 2000 shows. many of you may have taped along side me or plug out of me at some time. i have plenty of nak masters and when there isn't a better source i would gladly take a nak recording and have done so.

i think it is fine to discuss the flavor or sound of equipment with out becoming defensive or personalizing it. i do not over identify with any piece i own or have owned in the past. they are what they are and nothing more or less. i woul certainly enjoy discribing othe equipment so to assist others in their purchasing choices.

that being said: the mic i'm presently using are schoeps ccm4's and akg 460's.  i use a v3 and a d8. i have a maranius 442 for mixing and multi micing.

 i bought a d 6 back in 1983, d5 in 1985, an sv250 in 1989, asv255 in 1990, a sony d10pii in 1995 and recently a d8 as a stop gap towards higher rez. i've owned at815's, akg 460's, 480's, and schoeps but have extensive use of 184's 414. 441, 421`, 300. ect.

i don't live in st l but rather in ny and my name is ray. i've done a lot of trading with matt h, who i met in texas at a bobby show. we often trade dead shows after tours, for which i'm grateful for. i enjoy getting multiple copies of shows so that i can compare equipment

what i enjoy in a recording is an accurate soundstage, timbres, dynamics 'macro and micro'.   

at 200 a pair they are fairly affordable, however i would suggest that folks save a bit more money and buy a used pair of akg 460 for around 400-600, jmo.

[leegeddy]

well written post, ray. i agree...personal preference is the key.

at 200 a pair they are fairly affordable, however i would suggest that folks save a bit more money and buy a used pair of akg 460 for around 400-600, jmo.

why stop at akg460? why not save up an extra $300 for a pair of 480s for around $900? hell, for another $500 skm140s are in the picture. the argument is endless.

my point is that for around $200-250, these Nak mics play a role in the taping world. again, personal preference in sound is emphasized.

marc

[shaggy]

Ray,

You said:

since i raised this question some folks took to being critical towards me by marginalizing my question and questioning my experience. as if experience really means anything.  'from the nouth of babes you often get the truth".

Dude, you totally were trying to stir the pot earlier; recall your 'cheap whiskey' comment.  If you have been around the block for so long, you should have enough sense to make comments like that on this board. I know these boards are a tempting place to take it out on the crowd, but if you wanna rough it up with others go to a polictical board.  We all share a passion for taping, so let's help each other out and stop with the inane white trashy 'Ford vs. Dodge trucks' talk.  I have held back from giving you a -T but you get one now for marginalzing our comments with the above quoted comment.  

And you said you can't listen to these Nak sources anymore; then why the heck are you trading with Matt Hiles?  That guy is Mr Nak!  

ANDY

[zhianosatch]

dwonk, for goodness' sake, take it easy. it sounds like you're getting pretty butt-hurt and we both know there's no reason to.

[stlram]

Like I said, there is no reason to take it personal. I never said that nak mics didn't have a place in the taping world. Cheap wiskey has a place in the drinking world and after a tough hockey game I drink cheap beer, so what.

My question was, are folks hearing the same colorations with naks that I hear. Man, you could say the same about the 460's which does some good things but misses on refinement and 3 dementionality when compared with other mics and I certainly wouldn't take any offense. You could present why Schoeps sound has a bit of a veil and call them over priced yuppy shit and I could care less.

In the end and IMO, the issue wasn't my question or comments but the over personalization/identifaction that folks have towards equipment, much like sports fans have towards the team they follow. Using metaphors is a good way to get to the point. It is easy ploy to dismiss the message by attacking the messenger. Also, if you are offended by my comments then you really need to lighten up and enjoy life a bit more. I would suggest take up another hobby. (Don't be offended by this statement it is a joke! We need all the tapers we can get!)

Anyway, if I hurt your feelings forgive me but don't try to stop a discussion by attacking the messenger and not the message. It is intellectually dishonest. If you feel that naks are a great value and sound reasonably good, then that's all you have to state. But to marginalize my question by questioning my experience or motives does not address the presenting arguement.

In the end I offer you a fond farewell with this topic!

Sincerely, Ray

[hexyjones]

back to the original issue a bit...

One thing I've noticed is the NAK300s seem to be less successful in many of the traditional configurations...XY, ORTF...(NOS is ok)...

But sometimes it seems like it's best just to put about 12 inches between the mics and just point them at the stage...

[Brian]

after reading all of this i have one question for stlram:

in your "[23 years of taping]"  when did you learn that microphones can compress the signal

were you trying to say that it has a poor transient response? better yet,  how does a microphone compress the signal being fed to it?  I'd ***REALLY*** like to know. thanks!