Topic: High end mic summary

[bhoy]

I've been taping for years & I've never owned a set of true high end mics.  I have a set of Core Sound HEB's, but I would like to also have a pair of mics to do some non-stealth work.  Of course, ideally, what I buy would be nice to use in *some* stealth situations.  I'm thinking of running these into a V3.

I would just like to list out what I'm thinking of.

1.) B&K 402x - these are cardiods?  The capsule could be run directly into the V3.  These are well respected mics, but I find sometimes that they have less bass response than what I am used to with the HEB's.

2.) Schoeps MK4's.  I believe you could just get the capsules and then run these in the N-box (which is Reutelheuber's design?).  Schoeps have a different sound than the B&K's.  I'm not sure if I prefer it over the B&K's though.

3.) AKG ck61, ck63 capsules into a JK labs box.  I have no experience with these.  I guess with this setup, you could use different capsules for different situations.

4.) Neumann (?) - not much experience with these either.

I'd love to hear any additions to this list or comments as to what you like about any of these setups.  I realize that each mic has its place and its own qualities.  I just want to be sure I'm not missing any major mic's here.

Thanks,
Bill

[Rick]

2.) Schoeps MK4's.  I believe you could just get the capsules and then run these in the N-box (which is Reutelheuber's design?).  Schoeps have a different sound than the B&K's.  I'm not sure if I prefer it over the B&K's though.

More Like MKx's There's a few caps you could also use.... Also if you didn't want to run with the bodies, you could do...

MKx > KCY > VMS 5U
MKx > KCY or KC5 > Sonosax SX-M2/LS2 (aka lemosax)

And don't for get the CCM Series...

[keepongoin]

the neumann km 140s have active cables and are certainly stealth worthy.

the MGs have a J&K labs box for their capsules which would be steath worthy.

i have stealthed with the neumann km184s before... it isn't the most convienient to have the whole mics in your hat, but those are pretty small-bodied mics.

[d5]

1.) B&K 402x - these are cardiods?  The capsule could be run directly into the V3.  These are well respected mics, but I find sometimes that they have less bass response than what I am used to with the HEB's.

I believe the 402x are card's and the HEB's are omni's. I would expect this to be the major source of differance in bass response.

[nic]

regarding the Gefell>JK Labs (and probably the AKG>JK Labs), Jon(JK) is very backed up with projects..
even if he wasnt backed up, you would still be looking at about a 3 month turnaround time from order placement until it arrives.


just something to consider.

[shaggy]

luvean,

any torrents active with your new set up?  I would like to hear how that sounds.


Bill,

Schoeps make their own active pre box, VMS5u or the VMSib2u (discountinued and smaller, sorry I got dyslexia).  Brain Skandler made some comparisons of the MK41 > Nbox to the CMC6 on the Tealeafgreen and the sound was different.  I think the Nbox thins the sound out overall, loosens it in the low end and makes the highs grittier.  As far as the JK Labs box, I have heard few recordings with it on the AKG ck61 caps and none with the MG caps.  I have never heard a comparison but the set up with the AKGs seems to be accurate in regards to the overall AKG 480 sound.  Neumann KM140 are awesome, the active set up requires you to haul around the bodies, which adds bulk.

As far as an addition to your set up, I would reccomned going with the active set up since I have found stealthing has produced more amazing results than section tapes.  You will have flexibility.  I think that using cards in a hat is a bit more tricky since it is more sensitive to head movement (as opposed to omnis).  That being said, the JK Lab set up and the Nbox/VMSib2u are the stealthiest of the lot.

ANDY
 

[jk labs]

I've been taping for years & I've never owned a set of true high end mics.  I have a set of Core Sound HEB's, but I would like to also have a pair of mics to do some non-stealth work.  Of course, ideally, what I buy would be nice to use in *some* stealth situations.  I'm thinking of running these into a V3.

I would just like to list out what I'm thinking of.

1.) B&K 402x - these are cardiods?  The capsule could be run directly into the V3.  These are well respected mics, but I find sometimes that they have less bass response than what I am used to with the HEB's.

2.) Schoeps MK4's.  I believe you could just get the capsules and then run these in the N-box (which is Reutelheuber's design?).  Schoeps have a different sound than the B&K's.  I'm not sure if I prefer it over the B&K's though.

3.) AKG ck61, ck63 capsules into a JK labs box.  I have no experience with these.  I guess with this setup, you could use different capsules for different situations.

4.) Neumann (?) - not much experience with these either.

I'd love to hear any additions to this list or comments as to what you like about any of these setups.  I realize that each mic has its place and its own qualities.  I just want to be sure I'm not missing any major mic's here.

Thanks,
Bill

Gefell makes capsules (M21 etc) and Josephson has modular mics. They both ought to be on your list of "stealthables". There may be others as well.  I am personally not aware of active cables being made for the Josephson mics though.

But now, directional mics in this context (small & unbaffled) are mics made with open access to the rear of the diaphragm. So the comment stating B&K having poor deep bass compared to general purpose omnis (like the DPA4060 series) will be equally true for cardioids, sub-c, hypers etc from any manufacturer.  Bass is often plenty at concerts so a rolling-off bottom might not prove to be that much of a drawback. 

Neumann design, tension and size their mics a bit differently from the others. The "Neumann sound" of the AK40 cardioid is still mainstream imho while the AK50 hyper might be, well, a bit more "special".

Of these I think it's only the Schoeps that is offered with two fundamentally different active cables (Schoeps original vs the Nbox variety - they take the signal "out" in very different ways).  Neumann has the LC-3. 

The downstream electronics can be done in different ways   The LC-3 f.ex mates with the KM100 body but it's possible to get rid of the bodies alltogether. One benefit of very tight integration between cables and the downstream electronics is that you can create a very clean signal path: the signal from the active head can be taken right to the gain stages (some active cables can even be made part of a gain stage). 

It's a very interesting topic and endless hours can be spent listening. deciding, even doubting...

And then you have issues like off axis response: ORTF and XY might give vastly different results with different mics.
 
Just some late night ramblings!

Jon

Edited for readability and errors

[bagtagsell]

Gefell makes capsules (M21 etc) and Josephson has modular mics. They both ought to be on your list of "stealthables". There may be others as well.  I am personally not aware of active cables being made for Josephson mics though.

But now, directional mics in this context (small & unbaffled) are mics made with open access to the rear of the diaphragm. So the comment stating B&K having poor deep bass compared to general purpose omnis (like the DPA4060 series) will be equally true for cardioids, sub-c, hypers etc from any manufacturer.  Bass is often plenty at concerts.

I don't like so well to discuss individual mics in public but the Schoeps technology used in the Mk4 is hard to beat for bass
extension. The Mk41 is the hyper from the same series.

Neumann designs, tensions and sizes a bit different from others. The KM40 sound is still mainstream imho while the KM50 might be,
well, a bit "special"  Grin

Of these I think it's only the Schoeps that is offered with two fundamentally different active cables (Schoeps original or the Nbox variety - they take the signal "out" in very different ways).  Neumann has the LC-3.

The downstream electronics can be done in different ways Grin  The LC-3 f.ex mates with the KM100 body but it's possible to get rid of the bodies alltogether. One benefit of very tight integration between cables and the downstream electronics is that you can create a very clean signal path: the signal from the active head can be taken right to the gain stages (some active cables can even be made part of a gain stage).

It's a very interesting topic and endless hours can be spent listening. deciding, even doubting...

And then you have issues like off axis response. ORTF and XY might give vastly different results with different mics.
 
Just some late night ramblings!

Jon

wow, i whish i rambled like that at night

[dklein]

With regard to stealthing, I was thinking that most directional mics probably aren't behaving as intended anyways.  Sticking them in your hat, collar or shirt has got to be affecting the way sound reaches the side vents (and then on to the back of the diaphragm).  I couldn't tell you precisiely what the effect is...I would guess that they become less directional if you are restricting them in any way.  Anyone?

[grider]

the only additions I would make would be the Neumann km140 (cardiod with active cables) and km150 (hypercardiod with active cables) and no one has yet mentioned the MBHO 603a set up which is again the cap with active cable arrangement mentioned several times above which is available in the kn200 (cardoid cap), kn100 (omni cap) and kn500 (hypercardoid) models, any and all of these manufacturers offer high quality microphones and active cables and provide a very low profile mic system, photos of them all are available at sonicsence.com

[F.O.Bean]

eck, stay away from the neumann ak50 caps, they are way overpriced and soiund too tinny IMO

[nickgregory]

personally if your looking for something that will be used to stealth with as well, stay away from any mic that requires the body to be part of the equation...just makes things less portable...

[Tim]

mics that don't require bodies....

dpa 402x
schoeps ccm series

schoeps and neumann's with the lemo-sax
schoeps with the vms box

akg and mg's with the jk labs box

any others we're missing?

[nickgregory]

I think thats it...I think Jon at JK Labs can also make a box/cables for the MBHO caps but dont quote me on that...

[F.O.Bean]

i believe i heard that through the grapevine too nick

[jk labs]

I think thats it...I think Jon at JK Labs can also make a box/cables for the MBHO caps but dont quote me on that...

Hahaha,

you know what, of the mics mentioned so far, the DPA 4022 is the only one that has managed to scape me.

And it annoys me not knowing what it would take to gain access to the internal electronics board and how easy/difficult it would be to do the changes necessary to allow direct powering by battery   

Jon 

[jk labs]

With regard to stealthing, I was thinking that most directional mics probably aren't behaving as intended anyways.  Sticking them in your hat, collar or shirt has got to be affecting the way sound reaches the side vents (and then on to the back of the diaphragm).  I couldn't tell you precisiely what the effect is...I would guess that they become less directional if you are restricting them in any way.  Anyone?

I agree. You have solid obstacles just inches away from the mic: altered directional patterns, even for omnis. Occurance of multipath, comb filter effects etc etc   However, putting numbers on the severity of these effects could prove challenging. But a good stereo, a set of 1/3 octave warble tones and some patience could give some ballpark answers....

[musicsherlock]

With regard to stealthing, I was thinking that most directional mics probably aren't behaving as intended anyways. Sticking them in your hat, collar or shirt has got to be affecting the way sound reaches the side vents (and then on to the back of the diaphragm). I couldn't tell you precisiely what the effect is...I would guess that they become less directional if you are restricting them in any way. Anyone?

I agree. You have solid obstacles just inches away from the mic: altered directional patterns, even for omnis. Occurance of multipath, comb filter effects etc etc However, putting numbers on the severity of these effects could prove challenging. But a good stereo, a set of 1/3 octave warble tones and some patience could give some ballpark answers....

What's everyone's gut feeling about hat stealthing?...omni, cards, or hypers?

[stlram]

If you go with Schoeps I would get the CCM, which get rid of all the extra's you don't need like the active cable and VMS. You estentially get a compact microphone like the DPA 4020 series but with the Schoeps sound.