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Author Topic: Taping in Mono rooms  (Read 19126 times)

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DaryanLenz

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Taping in Mono rooms
« on: April 13, 2003, 11:56:57 PM »
I have always wondered this and since I am bored, I thought I would throw this up for discussion.  I have always run in the sweet spot, assuming a stereo mix, and never have really bothered to ask if the mix was mono or stereo.  So I found out one of the bar's I tape in regularly is a mono room.  Theoretically, wouldn't the best tape be made directly in front of one of the stacks?  Would one still run a stereo configuration or just AB?  Just cuirous...

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jpschust

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2003, 12:02:43 AM »
if the mix is a mono mix then tape the stack from up close in an ortf or xy config so that you turn a mono mix into a stereo mix with as little annoying crowd as possible

DaryanLenz

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2003, 11:01:26 AM »
Bump, anyone else care to comment?

D

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2003, 11:21:49 AM »
Theoretically, wouldn't the best tape be made directly in front of one of the stacks?

Depends on the sound you're after.  This will provide the most soundboard-like recording, obviously.

With a mono mix, I still like using a stereo config in the sweet spot - even though there isn't a L/R stereo image of the instruments (guitars panned left, keyboards panned right) - because of the imaging it provides.

Whether or not to run a stereo config when stack taping is a question I can't answer as I've never done it.
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Offline hippies

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2003, 12:47:07 PM »
stack taping rocks when you get the chance.  i wouldn't want to strictly tape this way, but it is definately fun, and everyone should try it at least once!  Jonny pretty much nailed it with his comments.  

still, i have my doubts as to whether a stereo config helps 'much' in this very high spl situation, so close to the source.  try it both ways and see for yourself.  

Brian is right on the money, you'll get a recording that sounds very much like a SBD/ Matrix recording if done properly.  the whole idea behind stack taping is to isolate the music from crowd noise.

one hint:  check out the kind of cabinets you are trying to record before setting up.  are they combination cabinets, or seperates?  in other words, are the cabinets all the same, pushing highs/ mids/ lows?  or are you looking at seperate cabinets for each range?  if they are seperates. you don't want to be TOO close, as you will pick up too much of the range cabinet you are in front of.

hope this helps.

~S  

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2003, 01:35:14 PM »
aren't most shows mono mixes?

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2003, 02:00:50 PM »
Scott's right.  there are some exceptions, but yes.  that being said, i'd still guess that somewhere around 90% of the shows you will see are done with a mono mix.

QUE: Nutter for his argument that some instruments, at times, are being 'panned' slightly even in a mono mix, so is this 'truly' a mono mix?  (paraphrasing of course.)

obviously, we've had this discussion before, and do not agree on this point.   ;)

~S
« Last Edit: April 14, 2003, 02:28:17 PM by hippies »

Tim

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2003, 02:57:44 PM »
I think 90% is too high of an extimate based on my experiences as an engineer in clubs and theatres. Maybe so, maybe not.

Besides DMB what other big bands punk out and go with mono mixes?  ;)

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2003, 03:13:36 PM »
well, you Colorado guys tell us.  which is it, stereo, or line array?  ;)

you were the ones pushing the theory of these line array sound systems designed to make every seat in the house sound the same at head height.  add a stereo mix on top of this, and i'd like to know how this is accomplished exactly.  ;)

say i'm in the right hand third of some pavillion.  how then am i hearing a stereo mix that sounds the same to the person in my exact opposite position in the left hand third of the pavillion?  is this even physically possible?

either i'm missing something, or these are some amazing systems you're talking about and i have yet to see/ hear them.  and yes, i've seen the Cheese in small to large Venues over the years.  ;)

peace

~S  

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2003, 09:09:17 PM »
I think 90% is too high of an extimate based on my experiences as an engineer in clubs and theatres. Maybe so, maybe not.

Besides DMB what other big bands punk out and go with mono mixes?  ;)

Although I have no way to prove this, I believe that the Allman's run some sort of stereo/mono mix in the amphitheatres.  Last year in Raleigh, I taped from my seat, Left stack, and it sounds balanced.  

While I do think that ABB run a stereo mix, I believe they mix it with some sort of overlay (maybe it is the line array effect that Scott was referring to) that does not make any part of the house sound too out of balance.

This does not of course discount the fact that a nice stereo mix could have been achieved from centered seats.  I guess my belief is that if it was true stereo, me taping form 3 rows from the left stack, I would have gotten a badly out of balance tape and this is not the case.

Any stereo geniuses out there that can explain this? ;D

Nick

Tim

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2003, 09:27:38 PM »
well, you Colorado guys tell us.  which is it, stereo, or line array?  ;)

you were the ones pushing the theory of these line array sound systems designed to make every seat in the house sound the same at head height.  add a stereo mix on top of this, and i'd like to know how this is accomplished exactly.  ;)

say i'm in the right hand third of some pavillion.  how then am i hearing a stereo mix that sounds the same to the person in my exact opposite position in the left hand third of the pavillion?  is this even physically possible?

either i'm missing something, or these are some amazing systems you're talking about and i have yet to see/ hear them.  and yes, i've seen the Cheese in small to large Venues over the years.  ;)

peace

~S  

I think you're confused.

We were talking about wave form development and the height of the stands. If you run your stand too high you stand a chance of recording wave forms that are not fully developed and thus your tape might sound bright etc.

Each speaker is designed to throw to a specific part of the room. Hopefully, then each seat will recieve a less denegrated sound source.

That is the dillema of Mono v. Stereo. Give a lot of the house (70-80%) good sound and the rest shit. Or give that number in the sweet spot (30%?) phenomenal sound, another 50% good sound and the rest shit.

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2003, 09:56:53 PM »
haha!  well excuse me, but i don't believe i'm 'confused' at all, brah!

ok, so again i ask you, Tim, which is it?  give me negative tix if you will, (since i have reached the 128 tix threshold and you can do nothing but bring me down now.)  ;)  

side note:  Bri, can we fix this?  i don't really care about this much, but we can't give Rael any more neg tix!  hehe...

but i still think this deserves discussion!   ::)

again i go back to your argument of a week ago or so, Tim.  you yourself admit it's one or the other.  line array, or stereo.  well, last week we heard from you that we should ALWAYS run at head height due to 'most bands' running line array systems.  Nutter chimed in and said Phil/ DMB/ others use this type system.

you have now admitted that this 'line array' is not possible with a 'stereo mix'.  so which is it?

given your vast knowledge of house systems, and experience running said systems, do 'most bands' run via stereo mix, or line array?  you can't have both my friend.  ;)

i hope you understand that this discussion is meant in the vein of a fact finding tour, bro.  no offense intended!  give me the neg tix till next Tuesday, i could care less...  

as far as i'm concerned, we're here to get the facts straight, and i hope we can do that through this discussion.

peace

~S
« Last Edit: April 14, 2003, 10:08:44 PM by hippies »

Tim

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2003, 10:07:04 PM »
lose the passive aggressive attitude. Negative Tix? I could really care less about my or anyone else's tix. Check with Bri, I'd love for him to tell you how many +/- I've given anyone and especially you.

No, you are confused. Why couldn't you have a stereo mix with a line array? Look and see how many speakers are hung on each side. Probably 15-20. Each side can be delivered different source (ie. setreo) and each speaker on each side is configured for a different spot in the house.

later.. Bra'h...  ::)
haha!  well excuse me, but i don't believe i'm 'confused' at all, brah!

ok, so again i ask you, Tim, which is it?  give me negative tix if you will, (since i have reached the 128 tix threshold and you can do nothing but bring me down now.)  ;)  

side note:  Bri, can we fix this?  i don't really care about this much, but we can't give Rael any more neg tix!  hehe...

but i still think this deserves discussion!   ::)

again i go back to your argument of a week ago or so.  you yourself admit it's one or the other.  line array, or stereo.  well, last week we heard from you that we should ALWAYS run at head height due to 'most bands' running line array systems.  Nutter chimed in and said Phil/ DMB/ others use this type system.

you have now admitted that this 'line array' is not possible with a 'stereo mix'.  so which is it?

given your vast knowledge of house systems, and experience running said systems, do 'most bands' run via stereo mix, or line array?  you can't have both my friend.  ;)

i hope you understand that this discussion is meant in the vein of a fact finding tour, bro.  no offense intended!  give me the neg tix till next Tuesday, i could care less...  ;)

peace

~S
« Last Edit: April 14, 2003, 10:10:12 PM by Tim »

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2003, 10:45:04 PM »
obviously, we have a different view as to what exactly constitutes 'Stereo'.  let's clarify here:

when i say 'mono mix', i am saying that the same (95%) of the information/ music is being transmitted through BOTH left AND right speaker stacks at the exact same time.  

it is again my view that around 90% of the acts/ bands/ venues we see will be broadcasting the PA in this manor.  

to ME:  a stereo mix would suggest a mix which precludes the musicians on the left of the Sound Stage would 'mostly' show up on the left Stacks, and vice versa.  where and when  is this happening?

my opinion:  it's NOT happening.  

again, Tim, i ask how could a mix which pans, say, Jerry, stage left, possibly make the seats in left/ right sound the same?

impossible.  i believe you are a bit confused, my friend...  ;)

peace

~S      

Tim

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2003, 11:21:22 PM »
I never said that the seats left and right would sound the same. Each *individual* speaker (not each *stack*) is arrayed to deliver optimal sound to a specific point in the venue. Each individual speaker on the left and the right is arrayed for a specific point in the venue. You array each speaker individually and each stack is a complete and seperate entity.

The audio sent to each side of the pa is controlled at FOH through the desk and no matter if you are running traditional boxes or a line array system you can utilize stereo if you have a desk with pan pots and enough power amps.

I am sick of talking in circles with you. Please some one else let me know if what I am saying is not clear.

http://www.l-acoustics-us.com/techsupport/linearrayQA.pdf

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2003, 12:58:57 AM »
I never said that the seats left and right would sound the same.

but you did!...  ;)

http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=1722;start=45

if you always want to be right Tim, no problem, please just say so.

but if you're going to disagree with someone, please be prepared to back up your opinion.  just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they have some kind of negative attitude.  please get over yourself.  

i see no need for sending numerous nasty private messages.  ;)

but that's beside the point here.  we're all waiting to hear what bands run in stereo if you have the time.  i think this information should be shared, as this could have a major impact on how we tape PA systems, and is a pretty important subject.  

peace

~S
 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2003, 10:45:53 AM by hippies »

Offline scb

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2003, 07:08:20 AM »
>>Besides DMB what other big bands punk out and go with mono mixes?<<


the list is a lot easier if you just name what big bands run stereo, because it's not a big list

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2003, 08:22:16 AM »
>>Besides DMB what other big bands punk out and go with mono mixes?<<


the list is a lot easier if you just name what big bands run stereo, because it's not a big list


I am always amazed how everyone assumes that DMB is the ONLY one running mono...yet when pressured can never give you an answer of who runs stereo.....

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2003, 12:37:00 PM »
I cant recall too many stereo shows ive seen recently... I know Dylan runs stereo,a nd Im pretty sure the Neil shows from summer of 2000 used a stereo rig, but ill have to check tapes.
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Tim

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2003, 01:03:31 PM »
>>Besides DMB what other big bands punk out and go with mono mixes?<<


the list is a lot easier if you just name what big bands run stereo, because it's not a big list


I am always amazed how everyone assumes that DMB is the ONLY one running mono...yet when pressured can never give you an answer of who runs stereo.....

Sorry Scott B., Nick  and all for my poor phrasing... just being sarcastic as usual. DMB is definitely not the only one running mono, I'd love to see who else is just for my own curiosity. Serious question, just put out there in an unserious manner... my bad!

Tim

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2003, 01:49:45 PM »
I never said that the seats left and right would sound the same.

but you did!...  ;)

http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=1722;start=45

if you always want to be right Tim, no problem, please just say so.

but if you're going to disagree with someone, please be prepared to back up your opinion.  just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they have some kind of negative attitude.  please get over yourself.  

i see no need for sending numerous nasty private messages.  ;)

but that's beside the point here.  we're all waiting to hear what bands run in stereo if you have the time.  i think this information should be shared, as this could have a major impact on how we tape PA systems, and is a pretty important subject.  

peace

~S
 

Okay, I re-read what I said and I still don't see where I said that each seat left and right would recieve the same sound. I said the same thing that I have been saying this whole time. Each cabinet throws to a specific point in the room. Read it again, I don't see where you are coming up with this.

At this point I don't think you are actually reading what I am saying or have said. I can't make it any clearer for you. If someone other than Scott would like to step up and point out to me what I need to clarify I would really appreciate it. Either I am not clear or Scott is not understanding and I'd like to fix the problem either way  :)

I have no need to be correct all of the time. I love discussion and disagreements, that is what I do all day long.

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DaryanLenz

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2003, 02:25:25 PM »
So, then, theoretically, if most shows are in mono, why don't we stack tape pretty much all the time?  I have been under the impression that the sweet spot is still the best place to tape, irregardless of mono/stereo setups.  Is this not true?  Woul;d the best, most realistically representation of what is being played be captured directly in fron of a stereo stack?  Also, say in a small bar, and under the assumption that one has free riegn to setup wherever they so desire, how close to a stack would be too close assuming that the moitors are putting out all the frequencies at once!

Daryan

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2003, 02:37:04 PM »
So, then, theoretically, if most shows are in mono, why don't we stack tape pretty much all the time?  I have been under the impression that the sweet spot is still the best place to tape, irregardless of mono/stereo setups.  Is this not true?

This is a great question. My opinion would be that we would want to run from the sweet spot in all cases.  However, running in the sweet spot has it's own set of problems...namely that some bands shoot video for the vid screens from the soundboard and therefore you cant run higher than head height.  Crowd noise could end up killing the tape, even if it is a perfectly centered recording.  

There is definitely more to this discussion...interested in seeing where it goes....

Nick

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2003, 02:46:08 PM »
so just had another thought....It may be a safe statement to say that clubs and theaters run stereo mix....they are so small that a person on one side of the room is not far enough from the other sound source to miss it, but when you get into coliseums, sheds and stadiums is where the problem would be compounded, I think.

Nick

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2003, 03:18:49 PM »
right, Nick.  this is what i'm getting at here.  larger venues are just not conducive to stereo configs.  small venues, sure.  but the problems in presenting a stereo image over a wide area simply outweigh the effort or benefit of the attempt.    

sure, some larger bands do use a stereo config for certain effects they want to add to their show.  Pink Floyd comes to mind.  however, these bigger bands using stereo are few and far between.  if you can't tell by listening, or are in doubt at a show, it never hurts to ask one of the techs if you can catch them when not busy.  done this quite a few times.  ;)

peace

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2003, 04:17:38 PM »
I would say that MOST of the bands that I see run a stereo config.  Mono IS NOT 95% of the same music being played through both L and R speakers.  Mono IS 100% of the same music being played through both L and R speakers.  Line arrays most certainly can be configured to run in stereo and I believe SCI and Phil and Friends, along with TOO this past summer/fall all ran Stereo PA's.

Why we don't run stack tapes at all venues, even if mixed mono?  Well, if it's a theater or club, you may still get a small amount of stereo imaging from the stage, and therefore we'd be better off running from the sweet spot.  If you wanna capture the room, or 'being-there' sound, then run from the room, not 3' from a stack.

I don't think I'd ever purposely run a stack tape for any band unless it was the only way.  Large outdoor venues or VERY shitty sounding indoor venues running mono PA's would be the exception to that rule.  Right now, I can only think of one band that would apply, and that's DMB... even them, I'd rather run from the sweet spot, but there'd be 1000 teenage girls screaming into the mics all night ;)

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2003, 05:50:49 PM »
I'd rather run from the sweet spot, but there'd be 1000 teenage girls

Who said that's NOT the sweet spot?  ;)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2003, 05:51:35 PM by jlykos »
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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2003, 05:53:12 PM »
hehe... I didn't wanna go there, but now that you mention it :)

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2003, 06:33:21 PM »
who else runs mono?

i'll list who i've seen in the past few months who had a mono mix, yes, some will be totally random, but hey, i taped some random shit.

def leppard
ben harper and the innocent criminals
flecktones were mono last week (which is weird)
peter gabriel
bruce springsteen
ben folds
beck
the flaming lips
david bowie
gnr
norah jones
david gray
coldplay
toad the wet sprocket
counting crows
rusted root
kansas
reo speedwagon


what was stereo?  mule, allmans (@ the beacon, i'm not convinced they're stereo at amphitheaters), kimock, hornsby, pat mcgee band (1% stereo).  that might be it.  robert randolph

i'm forgetting a lot of bands i taped in the past year, but they'd all fall under the mono category
« Last Edit: April 15, 2003, 06:39:27 PM by scott brown »

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2003, 06:49:31 PM »
how many of those bands tour with a PA and how many use either a house system or where using a rented house system?

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2003, 06:58:33 PM »
you mean "how many are ALWAYS mono?"

the list i did is always mono,as far as i know.  flecktones are iffy, i thought they were stereo in the past, but apparently have been mono this entire tour

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2003, 10:07:39 PM »
>>Regardless of the pa mix, the stage equip't is going to be stereo regardless, and can be the difference between a mono / sterile sounding recording and one that has stereo panning.<<

but in a bigger room you can't hear the stage....unless it's kimock...hehe

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2003, 11:50:10 PM »
you mean "how many are ALWAYS mono?"

the list i did is always mono,as far as i know.  flecktones are iffy, i thought they were stereo in the past, but apparently have been mono this entire tour

I'm pretty sure they were mono when I taped them at Georgia Tech last Feb.  I guess that's what my "really good"/personal best tape was missing to bring it to 'great" level...
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Offline Marc Nutter

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2003, 12:12:55 AM »
Hi All,

I’d like to add a few points about sound systems.

A line array is simply another type of array—a group of speakers designed to cover a larger area than a single speaker (cabinet) could on its own.  There is no intrinsic characteristic about it that dictates mono or stereo. The popularity of line arrays for touring systems resurfaced in the past few years with the advent of V-DOSC from L’Acoustics and many other manufacturers (Meyersound—M series, JBL VerTec, EAW KF760 and 730 series, McCauley, SLS, etc…) joining on the trend.  

Please understand that this is a grossly simplified description of a line array (and just about everything else).  Many white papers for both theory and application can be found online.  The L’Acoustics and Meyersound (see the “Can Line Arrays Form Cylindrical Waves” for an interesting read) websites are great for such materials. www.prosoundweb.com has recently started manufacturers’ forums to showcase their equipment.

Unlike a traditional array of cabinets, line arrays are designed to operate with a single column of boxes that each include low, mid, and high frequency devices.  Subwoofers may also be added in another flown column or stacked on the stage or floor as deemed appropriate from rigging points and system designer choices.

Typically, most line array cabinets boast a 90 degree (-6dB down) horizontal (left to right) coverage and a narrow (5-10 degree) vertical (front to back) angle.  Conventional cabinets are usually at least 30 x 30 degrees.  Most line array enclosures place the LF drivers on the outside edges and the mid and HF drivers toward the middle since the distance between the smaller drivers must be quite small to keep the interaction between the devices constructive.  If the distance between the drivers is too great, the line array is effectively broken and the drivers begin interacting in destructive and spurious manners.

As is true with many speaker enclosures, tightening the splay angle between boxes will extend the throw distance of the combined cabinets.  Consequently, we frequently see the top of the array tightly packed to throw the long distances to the back of the room while the lower portion is curved since those cabinets will only be throwing a significantly shorter distance.  While it may be a matter of infinite hope, the concept of the curved line-array is that the SPL will be very similar in the back of the room as they are in the front. While the inverse square law still remains in effect, as do all the laws of physics, the line array may see a less substantial level roll-off (around 3dB per doubling of distance as opposed to the traditional 6dB per doubling).  It is heavily debated in the audio industry whether this truly results from the line array principles or is achieved through good system design, which includes the tight-packing of the upper boxes and can include some level tapering (setting the amp levels higher on the top than on the lower boxes).

Standard arrays are designed to behave quite similarly.  Typically the larger, long-throw boxes are placed at the top and have as many cabinets per side as is needed to cover that side and any overlap necessary depending on mono or stereo format. Below that, there will be a row of shorter throw speakers and then a set of downfills to cover the shorter distance—the front of the venue.  The very front of the room, since we are discussing large systems here, will typically have some side fills on the stage sides and front fills across the lip of the stage.  

For those considering recording very close to a single cabinet, you may get lucky and have beautiful results.  However, as can be seen when measuring a cabinet (using analysis equipment) the frequency response changes radically with mic position.  Remember, a single cabinet is composed oftwo or usually more devices.  If you are in the path of the HF or MF horn, it can sound very ugly (bright, harsh, shrill) until you are at least several feet away and the other drivers have integrated into the path of the horn.

When it comes to the issue of mono versus stereo this is typically the choice of the mix engineer since most major touring companies will provide a system that is set up for left/right (stereo) operation.  While stereo by definition would imply differences in time arrival, in live sound, like most studio recorded material, we are really hearing amplitude differences achieved through left/right panning of instruments into various positions in the mix.  

As a parallel to this, near-coincident (like ORTF) microphone techniques take advantage of time differences whereas coincident (x/y) utilize amplitude (level) differences.  Still, these are both considered by most to be legitimate stereo microphone techniques.

For live sound applications, mix engineers have various approaches to creating a stereo image.  Some common practices utilized by most touring acts are keyboards panned to at least the 10 and 2 O’Clock positions, toms spaced at least that far as well, with guitar effects being spread similarly by way of the stereo returns from the reverbs and other effects processors.  Lead vocal and kick drum are typically straight up the middle (ie. mono).

The Grateful Dead, as many of us know, placed the musicians in the P.A. as they were seen on stage.  String Cheese Incident is mixed with each instrument in stereo (ie. keyboards split left to right, guitar left to right, and drums panned into various positions).  When Andy Meyer was mixing Widespread Panic (I can’t speak of what is done today), he used effects that sent sounds into different pan positions almost randomly. For example, a given conga did not always show up in the same left, right, or center position all the time, but nonetheless, it was not always in the center (ie. not mono).

While it is regularly argued that a stereo mix neglects people on the extremes of the venue, the general sentiment is that it is giving the best possible sound to the people who got the good seats.  Fortunately, the region of “good seats” can extend well beyond the dead center position.  


With a mono system, each side of the PA should be kept to its own respective side to prevent severe combing (destructive effects of common signal arriving out of time but at similar level).  Comparatively, a system run in mono will usually have considerable overlap (ie. The left side covering the right side of the room and its own and vice versa).  The effects are far less destructive since the content is different and it is possible to hear each side of the PA from spots off center.  

An extension of this is a 270 degree seating configuration, arena style, where there are frequently outer boxes covering the extreme sides that can be reversed .  Although the cabinets are actually far left or far right, they will be assigned the opposite feed so those sitting between them will still get a stereo mix, albeit reversed from what is being heard in the center of the room.   Dylan’s engineer does this very effectively as did the Shaped Music crew (same folks as SCI uses) in their system for Bonnaroo (2nd outside stage).

To clarify our ongoing matter of sounding the same in all positions, this is impossible but no one here has actually said that.  The concept expressed is that sound pressure levels should be maintained from front to back (vertical coverage of the P.A.).  While the inverse square law is always in effect, the effective sound system designer and operator will set up a system that provides similar levels throughout the room.  This does not imply that the usually favored positions, front and center, are not preferable to being out on the wings, under a balcony, or any other obviously undesirable position. While room anomalies are going to have significant impact on the sound, many people will have a similar experience insofar as perception of stereo and SPL.  

As for a list of bands mixing in stereo, it is the standard.  Generally, small rooms and large rooms utilize left/right mixes.  In small houses, you will hear a lot from the stage, usually considered detrimental by system designers and mix engineers, since they will put less of those instruments in the PA in order to prevent detrimental interaction from the PA with the already loud stage source.  You will find the exceptions but ask the engineers what they are doing.  If they aren’t busy, many love to share more than you would ever expect.

Happy Recording Everybody,

Marc

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2003, 09:29:37 AM »
Yeah, what he said. ;D

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2003, 09:32:20 AM »
IMO I'll never tape stacks.  Hell, I don't even like soundboard recordings most of the time.  My favorite thing about listening to live tapes vs. studio recordings is AIR, AMBIENCE, and that "live" feel you can only get when set back a bit from the stacks.  

Even in a mono venue I run stereo configs: I find crowd localization and "room sound" via a stereo config on the resulting tape really adds to the ambience of the recording, and the net effect is you are once again transported back to the room to saw the band in...

And that's what I'm trying to recreate in my home.  The live experience.

Marc: I have noticed a few bands recently with the "moving conga" effect.  It's kindof funny to hear on a tape, when you KNOW that conga (or whatever instrument) sure wasn't moving around :)

Offline nickgregory

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2003, 09:52:47 AM »
IMO I'll never tape stacks.  Hell, I don't even like soundboard recordings most of the time.  My favorite thing about listening to live tapes vs. studio recordings is AIR, AMBIENCE, and that "live" feel you can only get when set back a bit from the stacks.  


I would agree with this statement generally, but bottom line, with obnoxious crowds the way they are, I will take a bit of a more sterile recording if I dont have to hear some drunk jackass yelling out song requests....that is a part of the live experience I can do without reliving.


Even in a mono venue I run stereo configs: I find crowd localization and "room sound" via a stereo config on the resulting tape really adds to the ambience of the recording, and the net effect is you are once again transported back to the room to saw the band in...

And that's what I'm trying to recreate in my home.  The live experience.


This is a good point as well.  From some of the tapes that I have heard lately, even when they were run off the stage PA (mono mix), a stereo config (ORTF) sounded better than a point at stacks method.

Nick

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #37 on: April 16, 2003, 10:29:13 AM »
Marc is back to bustin knowledge again.... ;D
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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #38 on: April 16, 2003, 10:47:09 AM »
Nice post Marc. Thanks for sharing and I'm sure anyone reading that with an open mind, who is thinking logically and rationally will find the answers that they were looking for.

Tim

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #39 on: April 16, 2003, 04:01:38 PM »
second that emotion.    8)

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #40 on: April 17, 2003, 10:55:01 PM »
Hi All,

I’d like to add a few points about sound systems.

A line array is simply another type of array—a group of speakers designed to cover a ......................................................they are doing.  If they aren’t busy, many love to share more than you would ever expect.

Happy Recording Everybody,

Marc


Great post Marc. Longest post ever? ;) Thanks for the info! Props to you http://www.sonicsense.com/   ;)

Bri

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2003, 12:47:33 AM »
i still don't see it mattering if you record in mono, i mean i do both stereo and mono, cause you know is most venues it'd be weird to use stereo effects for a main mix.  In my sound engeneering experience this was never the case, the main mix was the same left to right,  my amp i like to run in stereo cause it sounds cooler with my effects, but i personnally see no difference in live recording situations where stereo recording has advantages over mono..   thats how i feel.
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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2003, 10:01:18 AM »
Beacause the crowd aint mono!!

If you want to recreate the ambience of a space, you have to record stereo.  Period.

Localization of sounds (like beer bottles, people yelling, etc) combined with something like a DIN, ORTF, or the like, creates a soundstage that extends outside each speaker, with the band somewhere in the middle.  Just like the show!  If you have a good hifi, it really transports you back to the venue...

If you're listening in the car, on headphones, or a general consumer "hifi" rig, then I agree, who cares.

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2003, 03:16:16 PM »
Add to the list of bands that run a stereo mix:

Meshuggah

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Offline Marc Nutter

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2003, 11:26:47 AM »
Add to the list of bands that run a stereo mix:

Meshuggah

-A

Hi All,

Having just returned from New Orleans (with a stint in New York just to mix things up), details at www.sonicsense.com/NOLA2003.htm and www.sonicsense.com/mtsinai.htm , I would like to expand on this previous discussion.

While the main mixer for the sound company I work with most frequently in NOLA (at the fairgrounds) runs mono, every visiting engineer panned at least several instruments at to varying extents left and right.  Overheads were nearly always split left/right as were keyboards. Some engineers go further and place rack toms in different positions as well. Stereo effects returns were also utilized by most engineers.  When I mixed, I did the same.

As I was part of a team that travelled from stage to stage supporting the house and visiting engineers, I observed many mixers, nearly all of whom ran stereo.  The only exception was the Neville Brothers board that I checked out before their engineer showed up.  It had all pan pots centered for mono, but the show had not yet begun.

Small list of consoles I saw:
Cowboy Mouth
Radiators
Dylan
Panic
Gladys Knight
Galactic
Garaj a trois
Numerous acts in the Blues Tent and on the Acura Stage.

While "stereo" may compromise some listeners on the outermost edges of a room, overlapping coverage is common system design practice for systems that will be run in stereo (ie. listeners on the edges will still hear the sounds coming from the far side of the P.A.)

I'm sure we can find many exceptions to those using stereo techniques but the best way to be sure is to look at the console (note the position of the pan pots) or ask.  

Happy Recording,

Marc

Offline ducati

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2003, 11:36:35 AM »
Thanks Marc, great info!

I wish people wouldn't pan keyboards L/R.  It's not very often you have a keyboard in the center of the stage, and it's annoying to me when they're panned across the soundstage.  MMW does this to varying degrees every time I've seen them.  It's annoying on the tapes, because it doesn't fit what you "saw" visually at the show...  And it's tough to get your brain's filters to recreate the event as you saw it.  

Drums are usually not as distracting panned across the soundfield, since they're usually in the center of the stage anyway...

I know the idea of the guy mixing isn't to recreate the soundstage as it "looks" but I wish they would!!   ;)

Offline Marc Nutter

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2003, 12:09:55 PM »
Hi Ducati and All,

I understand your point.  It is certainly another aspect of the dilemma in choosing stereo vs. mono.

The way you suggest is how The Grateful Dead did it, but not how most do these days.  While the idea of putting all the sounds of an instrument in its place according to the stage seems like a cool idea, and it worked with The (Original) Dead, it certainly pushes the issue of compromising listeners outside of the coverage area.  In this case however, it is the entire instrument that would be lower in level as opposed to only reducing the section that is panned the other side.

As far as keyboards are concerned, the output is often stereo.  How wide they are panned is the mixers choice.

Happy Recording,

Marc


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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2003, 01:49:53 PM »
Marc...you really should hang out and answer questions more often, your responses are always very informative.  Now go sell some stuff ;) ;D ;)

Daryan

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2003, 02:22:38 PM »
Don't encourage him, D...not if he's working on a Blues Traveler BitTorrent. Or as we're calling it on blackcat, a BT2. ;)

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Offline Marc Nutter

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #49 on: June 05, 2003, 11:35:57 AM »
Add to the list of bands that run a stereo mix:

Meshuggah

-A

Hi All,

Following Monday night's Trey shows, it's safe to say we can certainly add Trey Anastasio Band to the list of those running in stereo.

Paul is actually spreading the horns across the stage (panning), as well as spacing rack/floor toms, and full left/right split of overheads.  While I discussed the recording system with him, I did not inquire about stereo/mono for Phish.  

Happy Recording Everybody,

Marc


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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2003, 02:40:45 PM »
How's about you enlighten us as to how they are doing the recording!  Just curious as to what info you got out of him.  I haven't seen any info on what kind of mix/system/mics they are using.  I remember hearing something about 414's being run omni on stage, but thats about it.

Thanks!

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2003, 07:50:01 PM »
How's about you enlighten us as to how they are doing the recording!  Just curious as to what info you got out of him.  I haven't seen any info on what kind of mix/system/mics they are using.  I remember hearing something about 414's being run omni on stage, but thats about it.

Thanks!

HI wboswell and All,

I can't offer any great enlightenment.  I think the following is repetitive of something on Digi-Phish several months ago.  

Basically, Paul is using a Pro Tools LE system on one of those cute, really little Macs with OSX and an M-Box.  He is taking a feed into an Apogee PSX-100SE at 24/88.2kHz, utilizing Apogee Bit Splitting into a Tascam DA-78.  The signal is split (I suspect before the PSX-100) and goes into the M-Box and onto Pro Tools at 24/44.1kHz.

I didn't inquire about the use of house or audience feedback mics.  The only mic up at FOH was the Smaart/Earthworks M30 that we use for system readings.

It was nice to hear that the Mac is very stable with 24-bit via the USB.

Happy Recording,

Marc

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #52 on: June 06, 2003, 01:46:47 PM »
Thanks for the info Marc.  Nice to hear something (relatively) from the horse's mouth.

About the Mac being stable @ 24bits, which I have read that it wasn't, does 88.2 kHz make it more stable than 96kHz?  Just curious as to why they chose that freq. over the more common 96.

Not that I have ever taped anything at those resolutions...  I'm just trying to absorb a little info.

An outsider looking in... William

Offline Marc Nutter

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #53 on: June 06, 2003, 02:30:19 PM »
Thanks for the info Marc.  Nice to hear something (relatively) from the horse's mouth.

About the Mac being stable @ 24bits, which I have read that it wasn't, does 88.2 kHz make it more stable than 96kHz?  Just curious as to why they chose that freq. over the more common 96.

Not that I have ever taped anything at those resolutions...  I'm just trying to absorb a little info.

An outsider looking in... William

Not being a Mac user, I can't comment on stability but with the numerous Pro Tools users out there, and PT being native Mac, I would expect it to behave weel.

The Pro Tools M-Box only supports 44.1kHz and 48kHz.  The 88.2kHz is going to the Tascam DA-78 multitrack recorder which is taking all eight tracks to store the 24-bit/88.2kHz data.  

88.2kHz is often preferred by professional recordists under the idea that it is easier and more accurate to downsample to 44.1kHz for CD releases.

I don't think it would be of any significant advantage where bandwith of an device input is concerned.  If you want to go high-resolution with DVD in mind, 96kHz would be preferrable, albeit not necessarily of that great of a sonic benefit over 88.2kHz.

Happy Recording,

Marc

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Re:Taping in Mono rooms
« Reply #54 on: June 06, 2003, 04:01:02 PM »
>>About the Mac being stable @ 24bits, which I have read that it wasn't<<

24 bit has worked fine over USB on the mac for quite some time now, i started doing it in 2001....

That was in OS 9.  OS X has introduced some issues because (i'm guessing here) some companies rushed to get their stuff X compatible instead of working out the bugs

 

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