Topic: Ideas for Installed Rig

[acidjack]

A club I record in regularly has made me an interesting offer.  They will waive their new $50 SBD fee in perpetuity, but in exchange, I need to help them out by providing some kind of installed rig.

I already have 35ft XLRs mounted in the venue to the spot where I put my mics; when I go, I just slap my mics up, plug in, and run.

In terms of something that will a) sound good, b) be easy to use and c) not cost me a ton of money, it seems that installing some CA-14s would be the best move.  They are certainly good enough that I'd use them myself from time to time.

My theory would be to mount them up in this spot, then run CA-14>stereo mini to dual XLR adapter>my current cables>dual XLR to mini adapter.

Most people who would likely use this are going to be video guys whose net knowledge of audio is using a Zoom.  It seems to me that the advantage of using the CA mics is they can run off of plug-in power, or I suppose I can also provide a battery box.

The obvious risks I see are:

- Not balanced. An issue, but it's like a 30ft cable run.  Not the end of the world.  Also not really for my use.
- Some idiot shows up and sends P48 through the cables and fries them.   

The other option of course is to just use something else that's an inexpensive P48 mic.    There there are many options, though I'm not sure the options are necessarily better than the CA-14s sound-wise.  That'd also probably need a pre.  I have no familiarity with normal non-portable pres, but I assume there is something cheap that runs off AC power that I could get?

[page]

A club I record in regularly has made me an interesting offer.  They will waive their new $50 SBD fee in perpetuity, but in exchange, I need to help them out by providing some kind of installed rig.

Personally, if they made me that offer and I tape there regularly. I'd go for a cheap P48 mic (studio projects C4, beyerdynamic TG I53C, or AT 853s) and mount those. Then when you want to run better stuff, just show up early, make the switch, and switch out at the end of the night. I'd also either put a wicked cheap preamp behind it, phantom blockers behind that, and then run it into the sbd (or leave the two cable ends tagged as "room mics, line-level signal". Something like the Nady DMP-2 or the M-Audio Audio Buddy. Something that if you lost, you would be peeved, but not pissed. If you tape there a ton, then I'd consider a set of 40' cheap XLRs in addition to what you already have so the house can use those mics and you can still fly yours (or figure out a convenient way of providing patches). Total cost: $400ish.

Just draw up an agreement that this is loaned gear, and not donated gear. It would also behoove you to write it in as something done by nyctaper and not you personally so others in your group could use the sbd patches under that agreement. There is a cost:benefit ratio here that I'm not even going to address. I'm pressed to think of any venue near me that I'd do this for, but I currently don't get sbd patches often (2 in the last year maybe?). I'd have to be getting patches for stuff that wasn't normally allowed before I ponied up, but since you get more, I think the pertinant question is whether or not you'd recoup your cash in an acceptable timeframe.

The other risk is it just gets stolen. Sort of remote, but I personally wouldn't dedicated much cash to the project because of that. I think it's Richard here who has a bunch of budget instalations around (Toronto?), that's who I'd talk to.

[danlynch]

This is sort of developing on the fly, and there remains the real possibility of running these through the board for P48.  That would also eliminate the need for battery box and probably a pre-amp.
The other hidden benefit here is the idea that if we can get a decent set of mics up there, we wouldn't have to drag much of a rig to these shows, just a deck, batteries and cables.

Your idea about drawing up some sort of contract is an superb point.  Thanks for your excellent input.

[acidjack]

Based on further conversation it seems what I am looking for is a reasonably priced (ideally sub-$300) mic pair that performs well, can take high SPLs, and is durable-enough.

They'll be clamped high enough off the ground that at least most ppl won't be able to reach them.

It will essentially be a donation.  Basically this will be me agreeing to pay the SBD fee a fixed # of times in exchange for not having to ever pay it again, and the club actually getting something beneficial to them and to me (and my friends) in return.

There is no doubt that anything I do will be in writing.

[bryonsos]

I've been considering picking up these to use under similar circumstances at a club here:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=152332.0

Sell one in YS or Ebay, and get either kirkd to do a external battery box mod, or Walstib62 to do a P12-48 mod. Great mics that can't be beat for the price IMHO.

[Fried Chicken Boy]

Those Naks do look good.  If they could be converted to P48, I think that would be a better way to go so you wouldn't have to worry about batteries going dead when you least expect it.  Recently, there was an eBay seller unloading several AT3031's at a very reasonable price that would've been perfect for this installation.  That said (and gone) a matched pair of M-Audio Pulsar II's might fit the bill.  They show up from time to time on the cheap (sub-$200?) and are pretty good.

[ScoobieKW]

I've been playing with the same idea.

Busman BSC1 mics are around 300 in the yardsale. Rode NT5 mics are 250ish.

Whether you use the board for pres and P48 or a different pre setup, I'd put an iso split before the board. That way people can use their pres, with phantom blocking being handled by the iso transformers. Feed the direct output into the preamp of choice.

I'm planning 4 lines from the hanging point to FOH. Audiopile.net sells a 4 channel 1x3 iso split for a bit more than a hundred.
Rapid adapter and baby pin so mics can be swapped out quickly.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

A club I record in regularly has made me an interesting offer.  They will waive their new $50 SBD fee in perpetuity, but in exchange, I need to help them out by providing some kind of installed rig.

Personally, if they made me that offer and I tape there regularly. I'd go for a cheap P48 mic (studio projects C4, beyerdynamic TG I53C, or AT 853s) and mount those. Then when you want to run better stuff, just show up early, make the switch, and switch out at the end of the night. I'd also either put a wicked cheap preamp behind it, phantom blockers behind that, and then run it into the sbd (or leave the two cable ends tagged as "room mics, line-level signal". Something like the Nady DMP-2 or the M-Audio Audio Buddy. Something that if you lost, you would be peeved, but not pissed. If you tape there a ton, then I'd consider a set of 40' cheap XLRs in addition to what you already have so the house can use those mics and you can still fly yours (or figure out a convenient way of providing patches). Total cost: $400ish.

Just draw up an agreement that this is loaned gear, and not donated gear. It would also behoove you to write it in as something done by nyctaper and not you personally so others in your group could use the sbd patches under that agreement. There is a cost:benefit ratio here that I'm not even going to address. I'm pressed to think of any venue near me that I'd do this for, but I currently don't get sbd patches often (2 in the last year maybe?). I'd have to be getting patches for stuff that wasn't normally allowed before I ponied up, but since you get more, I think the pertinant question is whether or not you'd recoup your cash in an acceptable timeframe.

The other risk is it just gets stolen. Sort of remote, but I personally wouldn't dedicated much cash to the project because of that. I think it's Richard here who has a bunch of budget instalations around (Toronto?), that's who I'd talk to.

I was going to install Behringer C-2s and a Nady DMP2 at the Pour House in Raleigh...  Never got around to it; we got preggers instead...

I still have the mics if you want to buy them - $40 + S&H...

Terry

[bryonsos]

I've been playing with the same idea.

Busman BSC1 mics are around 300 in the yardsale. Rode NT5 mics are 250ish.

Great idea! Checked the YS, and these are still there:

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=152987.0

That way you could situationally swap between cards and hypers.

[acidjack]

Any opinions on the sound of the Behringers and/or the original Busmans?  How's the bass response on the C-4s?

[ScoobieKW]

I have the busman modded Avantone CK-1 mics. They have the same capsules as the BSC-1s.

My archive recordings are here. The Mickey Hart Band was hung @12 feet 15 feet back from stage. (the spot where we are putting a pole and xlr runs.) No EQ or compression on the Mickey.

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Steve%20Kennedy-Williams

[page]

Any opinions on the sound of the Behringers and/or the original Busmans?  How's the bass response on the C-4s?

The short of it is, IIRC, the C4s trend bright while the Busmans don't.

[Colin Liston]

What about those AT3031's on ebay $80 each and free shipping.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Audio-Technica-AT3031-Cardioid-Condenser-Microphone-Free-Shipping-/290662633295?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43acd7cf4f#ht_1300wt_1139

[Fried Chicken Boy]

^^ Long gone and already mentioned in an earlier post in this thread.  There are two others on eBay, though; both used but one is slightly overpriced.

[acidjack]

Yeah, if another 3031 was there at sub-$100 that'd be pretty good.

I'm a little intrigued by the Behringers, but in this particular install, we need a mic with a bit of low end, as the spot itself is pretty dry-sounding.

[newplanet7]

If they pop up in the yard, you can usually pull a pair used of 391's for three.
Other than that, I would go SPc4's, or those BSC1's. If you can' get 391's I would say the Busmans FTW!

[hi and lo]

I am thinking oktava microphones. 

[SmokinJoe]

Digimod UA-5 for the pre.  SPDIF/Toslink/Analog RCA or TRS/USB.  A few people can patch out simultaneously.

[jbou]

Maybe talk to Joe about his mics in this post that Chuck modded. They sound like a good deal for not much cash.

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=145288.msg1869863#msg1869863

[acidjack]

Ended up pulling the trigger on the LSD2 in the YS.  It will continue to be mine, and I'm fairly comfortable that in this location it won't get destroyed.

Now the question turns to whether I will even get any pre, or just leave that.  Joe's suggestion of the UA-5 seems like a good one; I suppose it being 16bit is not a big deal as I could just use it as a P48 supply and then take an analog line out of it if I wanted to (right?). 

Also, am I correct that multiple people could patch from it at once?

Is there any other inexpensive (under $100) analog pre that would allow multiple patchers?  I assume nothing in that price range has digi-out except the UA5.

[page]

Ended up pulling the trigger on the LSD2 in the YS.  It will continue to be mine, and I'm fairly comfortable that in this location it won't get destroyed.

Now the question turns to whether I will even get any pre, or just leave that.  Joe's suggestion of the UA-5 seems like a good one; I suppose it being 16bit is not a big deal as I could just use it as a P48 supply and then take an analog line out of it if I wanted to (right?). 

Also, am I correct that multiple people could patch from it at once?

Is there any other inexpensive (under $100) analog pre that would allow multiple patchers?  I assume nothing in that price range has digi-out except the UA5.

I'm pretty sure the UA5 sends a 24bit signal, but most of us used 16bit buckets with it and let them do the truncation. Newer stuff like the D50 won't work with it, but others will, plus as you noted there is multiple outs. The bummer about the outs is that the analog ones are A>D>A, but in the grand scheme of things I wouldn't worry here, cost is a bigger issue.

[acidjack]

Thanks page.. makes sense.   

Assuming I can obtain a UA-5 at that price, is there anything out there that is really any better in that range?  I mean, I could be persuaded if there is a cheap analog pre that is amazingly good for the price, but....

[tcf]

I would strongly suggest the focusrite saffire and the superlux 302 stereo mic. The whole thing will cost 250 and can output into both a computer as well as analog and spdf into a recorder. I purchased a 302 for rainy days and feel it is the best bang for the bux. I purchase my saffire from eBay for a bill. Plus the saffire will allow the house to play house music off of their computer(if they are using one, d/a).

[it-goes-to-eleven]

SPc4's are not balanced microphones.

You need to be careful about that aspect of many inexpensive mics.

[tcf]

Actually I believe the lux 302 I referenced is actually the 502.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

I would get one of these, is spec'ed at 600 load which means sixteen 10K line loads.

edit: sorry, stereo version:

http://www.rane.com/ml1.html

I looked into geting a pair MS-2 for the Pour House, since they seemed more rugged and beer-proof than your typical preamp...

methinks I even asked Jon about making a similar 2channel box at one point...

Terry

[Fried Chicken Boy]

Not "better" but as a strictly P48 solution, maybe something like the ART Phantom II?  Runs off 9v battery or AC power and only $50 right now at B&H (click on "see current price").

[Teen Age Riot]

What kind of console do they have? If it's analog and there's a side rack, I think a rack mount pre like the one Jon suggested would be ideal. Provided of course, they let you install it. IMO it's not a good idea to have some loose piece of gear by the board as it'll get lost/stolen/forgotten at some point. (Can't think of how many headphones, adapters, patch cables, CDs etc I've "lost"...)

On the other hand, if there's a digital board, you could run the mics straight through it and record from a matrix out. That would also allow you to create on-the-fly matrices, if the board is capable of delaying multiple channels/groups.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

I would get one of these, is spec'ed at 600 load which means sixteen 10K line loads.

edit: sorry, stereo version:

http://www.rane.com/ml1.html

I looked into geting a pair MS-1S for the Pour House, since they seemed more rugged and beer-proof than your typical preamp...

methinks I even asked Jon about making a similar 2channel box at one point...

Terry

It's possible to do an AC powered littlebox, using a 48VDC wallwart.  But it wouldn't be cheaper than many other options, unless maybe you were looking for the splits built into the box or something.  I'd still want a box that bolted to a fixture.

My thought wasn't small size, but tough and relatively beer-proof (like the Rane).  Just an AC Powered 2channel preamp - basically P48 & gain for (2) mics and RCA outputs...  And yes, I'd want to bolt it down to the shelf in the Tapers Booth at the Pour House...  And yes, we have full access to AC power (power strip installed in Tapers Booth)...

If I remember correctly, you seemed to think that it would cost as much or more than (2) of those Rane MS-1S units...

Terry

[acidjack]

I agree that something you could rack mount would be better.

Luckily in my case the venue was thrilled I got the LSD2 for them, and it will be high enough up that only with concerted effort could someone damage it.  They said they don't need a pre at this time. 

UA-5, fwiw, still seems like a good option if you could secure it appropriately.

[SmokinJoe]

Ended up pulling the trigger on the LSD2 in the YS.  It will continue to be mine, and I'm fairly comfortable that in this location it won't get destroyed.

Now the question turns to whether I will even get any pre, or just leave that.  Joe's suggestion of the UA-5 seems like a good one; I suppose it being 16bit is not a big deal as I could just use it as a P48 supply and then take an analog line out of it if I wanted to (right?). 

Also, am I correct that multiple people could patch from it at once?

Is there any other inexpensive (under $100) analog pre that would allow multiple patchers?  I assume nothing in that price range has digi-out except the UA5.

I'm pretty sure the UA5 sends a 24bit signal, but most of us used 16bit buckets with it and let them do the truncation. Newer stuff like the D50 won't work with it, but others will, plus as you noted there is multiple outs. The bummer about the outs is that the analog ones are A>D>A, but in the grand scheme of things I wouldn't worry here, cost is a bigger issue.

Yes, a UA-5 is definitely 24 bit, up to 24/96.  Page is correct, back when the UA5 was in it's heyday most of us had 16bit recorders.  I think the A>D>A thing is way overblown... It's a theoretical problem, I don't believe anyone can hear it.

[page]

Ended up pulling the trigger on the LSD2 in the YS.  It will continue to be mine, and I'm fairly comfortable that in this location it won't get destroyed.

Now the question turns to whether I will even get any pre, or just leave that.  Joe's suggestion of the UA-5 seems like a good one; I suppose it being 16bit is not a big deal as I could just use it as a P48 supply and then take an analog line out of it if I wanted to (right?). 

Also, am I correct that multiple people could patch from it at once?

Is there any other inexpensive (under $100) analog pre that would allow multiple patchers?  I assume nothing in that price range has digi-out except the UA5.

I'm pretty sure the UA5 sends a 24bit signal, but most of us used 16bit buckets with it and let them do the truncation. Newer stuff like the D50 won't work with it, but others will, plus as you noted there is multiple outs. The bummer about the outs is that the analog ones are A>D>A, but in the grand scheme of things I wouldn't worry here, cost is a bigger issue.

Yes, a UA-5 is definitely 24 bit, up to 24/96.  Page is correct, back when the UA5 was in it's heyday most of us had 16bit recorders.  I think the A>D>A thing is way overblown... It's a theoretical problem, I don't believe anyone can hear it.

very likely, especially for this purpose. I remembering doing some low noise tests on my fr2-le and my ua-5 (digimod) and going "wow", but that was also stock electronic noise build in and not just the A>D>A.