Topic: M-S from a balcony?

[acidjack]

All technical arguments aside-- anyone done this with good (or bad) results?

My one attempt was not that great....

[page]

Can you describe the center mono/mid?

[milo]

I'd consider an MS with a dual center.  Omni and shotgun.  Whenever I use an MS for subjects far away I use a shotgun.

[DSatz]

I don't think that M/S (or any other coincident method) makes much sense for very distant recording. There needs to be a decent amount of direct sound arriving at the microphones; otherwise you won't have a definite stereo image.

It's a real problem. Not every mike position lends itself to making a good recording. But if you have a chance to experiment, you might try spaced directional microphones such as supercardioids. (Not shotguns, though--they have way too much rolloff at high frequencies in a diffuse sound field.)

--best regards

[noahbickart]

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=554588

The Punch Brothers
April 26, 2012
Town Hall; New York, NY

Location:
Balcony DFC. Front Row.

Source:
Schoeps mk22/mk8 [m/s]> kcy> Naiant Littlebox> Sony m10 @ 24bit 96kHz.

Fades, Tracking, Compression,* Dither & SRC in Sound Studio. Tags & FFP in Xact.

Tracks are seamless, burn as you wish.

01 Intro 0:34
02 Movement 4:38
03 Who's Feeling Young Now? 5:11
04 Trash 3:42
05 Flippen 6:51
06 Married 5:17
07 Missy 4:22
08 Brakeman's Blues> Cazadero 9:57
09 NYC 4:33
10 Clara 5:43
11 Hundred Dollars 6:15
12 Kid A> Wayside 10:30
13 Tulip 6:12
14 You're Just What I Needed 3:59
15 Watch'at 6:34
16 Rye 6:29
17 Encore Break 3:25
18 Patchwork 5:04
19 Groundspeed* 3:46
20 The Weight* 5:35

* The Band stepped out in front of the PA and played unamplified in the hall. I used some mild compression to bring the levels up.

[tgakidis]

Smokin' Joe did it here and it sounds pretty goob IMHO

http://archive.org/details/gptn2008-02-23.lsd2.flac16f

[noahbickart]

Dsatz:

Would you maintain your stance even in a when recording a concert of loud amplified music in a theater with a big PA?

My feeling is that an M/S array: mk22/mk6 or 8 captures a significant about of direct sound when in the front row/center balcony position.

I have used M/S from a standard OTS with an mk41 as well with good results:

http://bt.etree.org/details.php?id=565418

[Gutbucket]

Usually, I prefer coincident when used up close and personal, and configs with more space between microphones from farther away. In a way, that's somewhat analogous to antenna design theory.

Yet there are plenty of good exceptions to every rule guideline in this pastime, which keeps things interesting.  Although the norm around here, PAs are sort of a strange source in terms of acoustics and big rooms with far reaching PAs do project a higher ratio of direct sound farther into the room.  Recently I pulled out the Tetramic and recorded a few things with it from farther back in the room which confirmed my thoughts about prefering to use that particular coincident tool up-close and on-stage. 

As always, mileage may vary.  Everyone here knows that often simple practicalites trump decisions based purely on sonic preference anyway, and a compact M/S setup may simply be the most practical to rig and run in a given scenario. 

[Edit] Looking forward to checking out that Punch Brothers later, Noah.  Thanks for the link.

[cashandkerouac]

creative application of proven techniques is part of what makes our hobby fun.  we're free to break the rules as we please and sometimes the results are quite nice.  however, M/S recording from a balcony is not anything that i would want to try (unless it were purely for experiemental purposes).     

[SmokinJoe]

Smokin' Joe did it here and it sounds pretty goob IMHO

http://archive.org/details/gptn2008-02-23.lsd2.flac16f

Thanks for the vote of confidence Ted, but I didn't consider that a success really.  It was terribly boomy. I spent hours agonizing over the mid/side ratio, and probably used EQ and Compression to come out with something decent.  I walked away from that experience with "I'll never do that again."  That's my 2 cents worth.

My daughter uses the AT4050ST which has M/S capsules and electronics which output L/R in psuedo XY.  We've run it in the orchestra seating probably 10' below the balcony rail, with reflections from the "cave under the balcony" which is probably about the same.  My standard work in post for that case is to convert the L/R to M/S, roll off the bass a little as necessary, and convert back to L/R using relatively little Side.  If you know what a "shuffle" is, I'm doing "a reverse shuffle".  IMO it's decent, but I prefer SD cards/hypers in boomy spots.  Compare this result to the 15 other sources for that show, and draw your own conclusion. http://archive.org/details/sf2012-03-31.at4050st.flac16f

[bombdiggity]

Smokin' Joe did it here and it sounds pretty goob IMHO

http://archive.org/details/gptn2008-02-23.lsd2.flac16f

Thanks for the vote of confidence Ted, but I didn't consider that a success really.  It was terribly boomy. I spent hours agonizing over the mid/side ratio, and probably used EQ and Compression to come out with something decent.  I walked away from that experience with "I'll never do that again."  That's my 2 cents worth.

Thanks for the clarification.  The notes attached to the recording don't indicate that battle or the tools used to adjust it into what it is (which is solid, though maybe not exceptional).

As noted there are always exceptions but M-S is not in theory or principle the right tool for that job even if silk purses can sometimes be made from sow's ears.  My guess is a better result would come easier with a comparable quality directional or highly directional mic in the same location. 

I used to like front row of the balcony, though more for video  (for which that is always my preferred location)...

[acidjack]

Thanks for the input, guys.  Seems about like what I expected.  The main balcony where I was considering trying it is definitely not one of the better ones... the venue is boomy, but I thought maybe a center supercardiod or card with very little S mixed in might be an improvement. Sounds like PAS MK41s will continue to be my tried and true method for this situation.

FWIW, Joe, I thought those recordings came out very nicely, particularly the Grace Potter.

[tgakidis]

FWIW, Joe, I thought those recordings came out very nicely, particularly the Grace Potter.

He is his own worse critic.

[milo]

I don't record much music but I do record a lot of sound effects and ambiance.  The one thing I have learned is that none of it really matters until you get in the space, experience trumps theory every single time.  In big open spaces I like spaced omnis at least 25' apart, preferably closer to 50'.  I'm also a huge fan of a jecklin disk setup if the rig doesn't have to move, but it seems to be more placement sensitive than spaced omnis.  An MS setup with a hyper or short shotgun usually does very well for what I need.  I don't love ORTF or XY setups but that's because my subject matter often is moving (in which case the proximity effect of those techniques really fight me) or if I'm recording ambiance the ORTF/XY just doesn't pickup the space the way a widely spaced omni pair does.

I don't know why any of these things actually function the way they do, it's just that they do.  I've used a kmr81 6" away from the subject matter once and it was the best microphone in the rig for that application, I've also used an XY set of SM58s no closer than 50' at any given time that worked perfect.

[bombdiggity]

I don't record much music but I do record a lot of sound effects and ambiance.  The one thing I have learned is that none of it really matters until you get in the space, experience trumps theory every single time. 

All seems true for that setting. 

The question was about music though and performers/sound sources don't (normally) move in those circumstances. 

The last thing I want is a lot of room ambiance when I record music (save maybe one or two exceptional circumstances where the musicians are interacting with and using the space as part of the presentation).  I really dislike the room "boom" in my recordings (or anyone's).  Just enough to feel the music is in a room (as opposed to a sterile board feed sound) is all I want.  It gets back to the direct/reverberant ratio.  I get the feeling I'm a lot more ruthless about that than most.