Topic: DIN vs XY

[BJ]

ok...so i taped my next door neighbors band this weekend, less than optimal conditions in the bar...basically it SUCKED!


the bar already had people all throughout, including up near the sbd, and at the tables near the pole, and their were people dancing all around the pole...so it was a nogo....i chose the place marked as the best place available.

the sound in the place was aweful...completely ridiculous....the soundman must have been def....i do not know what he was doing up there...the mix was ear bleeding...

the first set I ran DIN 17cm....second set i ran xy, thinking(hoping) that it would improve the sound somewhat..help with picking up the bass

the pull actually sounds better than being there...which is the only good note...the first set, it sounds completly muffled, but you can hear the band...just not clearly...
the second set sounds worse, it picked up SOO much more chatter, completely different than the first set, and had less people there...??  the band is a little clearer, and more listenable in that regards, but the chatter is horrible...

AKG 393's -> digi-ua5 -> JB3
music was hard rock/punk sounding...i dont think they honeslty meant for that, but they are a VERY young band, and it just came out as that..even scarlet begonias, tweezer(i know this can be hard..but it sounded like death metal!!), and a few panic covers came out as VERY hard..power chords and such...
vocal pretty much nonexistant in sbd mix, except for ONE guy..and he cant sing that well..   You could NEVER hear the keys in the mix...which was frustrating to me...
drums were a little harsh, but i expected that in a small club.....two guitars were overbearing, and rarely distinguishable...

any thoughts on techniques...suggestions(besides strangling the sbd guy?) I figure i will be recording again in this venue fairly often, So i need suggestions...thanx

[stlram]

That is truly a bad venue. Here are my thoughts:

1) Run 90 degrees XY on stage when possible. If there are vocals thry to position you mic's above the center monitor to get a vocal blend.

2) See if you can hang you mic's from the ceiling top the right and in front of the pole. Bring enough cables to run back to the board. (ORTF)

3) Clamp on to the right side of the pole and try to extend your mic's on a boom to the right so as to center them as much as possible. Bring lots of cables or see if you can set up a chair next to the pole and run from there. (ORTF)

4) Hand hold up front and have some friends help you out.


4) Try running a aud/sb mix.
     a) On stage first
     b) in the venue second

[Brian Skalinder]

4) Hand hold up front and have some friends help you out.

All great suggestions, and just an add to this one:  if you don't want to handhold (I wouldn't), consider a monopod.

[pfife]

stealth!  stealth!  get right in the sweet spot.  these are the exact kinds of venues that make me want to stealth all the time.

[BJ]

That is truly a bad venue. Here are my thoughts:

1) Run 90 degrees XY on stage when possible. If there are vocals thry to position you mic's above the center monitor to get a vocal blend.

2) See if you can hang you mic's from the ceiling top the right and in front of the pole. Bring enough cables to run back to the board. (ORTF)

3) Clamp on to the right side of the pole and try to extend your mic's on a boom to the right so as to center them as much as possible. Bring lots of cables or see if you can set up a chair next to the pole and run from there. (ORTF)

4) Hand hold up front and have some friends help you out.


5) Try running a aud/sb mix.
     a) On stage first
     b) in the venue second

1)I thought about running on stage...but this would require me to stand directly in front of the monitor ALL night to watch my stuf....im too old...so ibacked out of htis option
2) celieing is way to high...not a chance
3) this was my second route..but i dont have a clamp(YET) or a boom pole...but i think i may try to go this route soon...it looks like the best possible solution...
4) see #1...i cantbe that close...too old
5) i like matrix recordings...but i would NOT want that sbd mix in my recordings...OMG!


thanx for the suggestions guys!

[fozzy]

might consider taping your stand to the pole DFC, could probably run DIN from there and maybe pull up a chair.

[Brian Skalinder]

1) im too old...so ibacked out of htis option
4) see #1...i cantbe that close...too old

Maybe you should hire a sherpa. 

Edited to add:  29 = too old to run up front?!?   
And again:  Sometimes, in some venues, we must make sacrifices to pull a quality recording.
Last one:  Dunno how big the pole is, but consider a Bogen SuperClamp

[BJ]

29 going on 55   

[F.O.Bean]

hehe, xy kills the image IMO, try and run DIn or somewhere inbetween XY/DIN

[BJ]

hehe, xy kills the image IMO, try and run DIn or somewhere inbetween XY/DIN

agreed..the XY pull suxd too, it did clean it up a little(hear the instruments), but lost everything else...

i did run din first...and it had its faults too...

1) im too old...so ibacked out of htis option
4) see #1...i cantbe that close...too old

Maybe you should hire a sherpa.

Edited to add: 29 = too old to run up front?!?
And again: Sometimes, in some venues, we must make sacrifices to pull a quality recording.
Last one: Dunno how big the pole is, but consider a Bogen SuperClamp

hee...im not sure about the superclamp..the pole is about 6-8 in diameter...I have never used a clamp..so i dont know whta would work and what wouldnt...

in some venues yes...but it wuold have to be a band i REALLY wanted to pull a great quality recording....
i was just testing my equipment/room on this one...the other half of the club is MUCH better...better soundman, better sound, more room, etc...they will be playing back there soon..i will pull a MUCH better recording back there...

+t's all around

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

hee...im not sure about the superclamp..the pole is about 6-8 in diameter...I have never used a clamp..so i dont know whta would work and what wouldnt...

Look in the rig pics section and there is a post showing how someone mounted a video camera to a big vertical beam using straps.  You could do something like that to mount a pole to the beam, then use the clamp to mount a boom to the strapped pole.   

[thoman8r]

hehe, xy kills the image IMO, try and run DIn or somewhere inbetween XY/DIN

agreed..the XY pull suxd too, it did clean it up a little(hear the instruments), but lost everything else...

i did run din first...and it had its faults too...

I think we as tapers (myself included) sometimes get too hung up on following exact positions like DIN, X-Y, yadda yadda yadda, where sometimes I feel they should be used more as a guideline.  Myself, if I am in a shitty sounding club I run hypers pointed at the outer edges of the stacks with a modicum (10-15cm) of separation.  I have received good results with that technique.  Sometimes you have to give up a little image for the sake of actually making a listenable tape.

[BJ]

these are exactly the types of responses I was hoping for...  IF I am ever in that situation again, I will probably experiment more...who knows...thanx

[Brian Skalinder]

im not sure about the superclamp..the pole is about 6-8 in diameter...I have never used a clamp..so i dont know whta would work and what wouldnt...

SuperClamp maxes out at around 2-1/2", so definitely won't work.  I'm gonna have to track down that thread on using straps to secure stuff to larger poles.

[BJ]

im not sure about the superclamp..the pole is about 6-8 in diameter...I have never used a clamp..so i dont know whta would work and what wouldnt...

SuperClamp maxes out at around 2-1/2", so definitely won't work.  I'm gonna have to track down that thread on using straps to secure stuff to larger poles.

i searched and didnt find it...tho i can search more/harder?  if you find it..will you send the link plz..ill do the same

[Brian Skalinder]

i searched and didnt find it...tho i can search more/harder? if you find it..will you send the link plz..ill do the same

http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=32119.0

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

and this one:

http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=32379.0

[BJ]

NERDZ  ...i have been searching...for that and the woman troll post with the pic that got purged...man i suck at searching

[ChrisV]

Yeah, I have been in the process of building some of those too with hopes of using them for both minidiv and audio in some situations.   A couple of 3/8" ones and one 1/4" one.   

Still trying to figure out how exactly I am gonna rig it up for audio...need to get it a little bit of space away from the pole somehow and upright ideally(90 degree).

[Tony B]

might consider taping your stand to the pole DFC, could probably run DIN from there and maybe pull up a chair.

I second this option. Team Duct tape is a definite dark horse 'round these parts. I know that Maker's Marc has a good picture of his ghetto duct tape job at a venue here in Minneapolis. ORTF from that spot would be pretty good, I think.

I dunno, though. If I'd been faced with the situation you so aptly described, I might have just run XY in front of one of the stacks and said screw the imaging. At least you can listen to the show afterward.

Actually, I quite like a few of the stack tapes I've made in bars.

[stlram]

When recording on stage XY is really the only way to go otherwise by running ORTF or DIN you get a hole in the middle and the infamous ping-pong affect when instruments or vocal wander left to right.

Otherwise, off stage you can take a pick of what ever confiqurations floats your boat, but my lord don't ever use DIN on stage and I would only use ORTF on stage when recording a deep stage full of instrument like an orchestra. And, in those cases I would blend a split omni in with the ORTF.

I really can't come up with any other taper positioning options other than the ones I have already stated. However, I'm not sure why you would have to stand infront on the stage and your mics if you ran on stage. When I do so, I bring enough cable to run my system off to the sides, where I pull up a chair and relax. 

Some have suggested that you position your mics right in front of the stacks and record them. By doing so you are basically recording the signal coming from the board and being played back through a PA. In other words, now you have a recording of a soundbaord coming through compromised speakers. Sure it will eleminate the crowd but it introduces a series of other issues that don't tickle my ear.

If you decide to record back by the board, which you seem to favor for comfort reasons, you will never be able to overcome the problems you have experienced so far. Alway remember the golden rules, "you can't polish a turd" and "location, location, location"! By remembering these two simple concepts it will direct you in the right direction to get the best possible recording.

In closing I will leave you with one last saying regarding compromising your options, "If you like the rain don't complain about the mud"! In other words, if comfort is the primary factor directing your taping options then accept the sonic hand you have dealt yourself.

Enjoy and keep us updated as to your outcome.

Ray

[goose]

To attach mics to that pole, you could also use an ultrapod (http://www.pedcopods.com/up2.htm).  I have one, but have not had the chance to use it in the field.  The ultrapod's legs collapse straight and it has an attached velcro strap to attach to poles and has an adjustable mounting point to attach your stereo bar.  Works well for me, at home at least!  Just another possible option.

[JAH]

might consider taping your stand to the pole DFC, could probably run DIN from there and maybe pull up a chair.

I second this option. Team Duct tape is a definite dark horse 'round these parts. I know that Maker's Marc has a good picture of his ghetto duct tape job at a venue here in Minneapolis. ORTF from that spot would be pretty good, I think.

I dunno, though. If I'd been faced with the situation you so aptly described, I might have just run XY in front of one of the stacks and said screw the imaging. At least you can listen to the show afterward.

Actually, I quite like a few of the stack tapes I've made in bars.

Please don't use DUCT (not tring to be contrary  ), I (and those trying the same spot) have been denied taping cause of past experience of others using Duct Tape.  I finally said I had velcro and they OK'd it  ....If you must use tape, use Gaffers...it holds like duct but comes off and doesn't leave a gooey tape residue, good stuff (I know sometimes there is nothing that will do but Duct)....Personally I bought some long velcro srtips for big poles and use it w/ a tabletop tri pod, works just fine.

I know this is a late post but I don't read 24/7...got the day off and listening to a Cassette that I made in 93...rfk.  trying out a "new system...found a 120W ROTEL rcvr and some Cerwin Vega D3's.....Like my 9se mkII Paradigms better nmore lf and smoother in the hf...still hear some good old cass. hiss...not sure if its the play deck (POS) or the rcvr...

When I Paint My Masterpiece
jah

[Crumbo]

sorry for the hijack

where can you find gaffers tape?

thanks

[caymanreview]

ebay has gaffers tape for decent prices i think. i am in a real rural place so i cant buy it anywhere else

[Crumbo]

ebay has gaffers tape for decent prices i think. i am in a real rural place so i cant buy it anywhere else

thanks

I've tried at home depot and ace hardware and they give me this look 

[Brian Skalinder]

I've tried at home depot and ace hardware and they give me this look

Your local musician's store oughta carry it.

[Crumbo]

I've tried at home depot and ace hardware and they give me this look

Your local musician's store oughta carry it.

ah....good call

thanks 

[eric.B]

Re: DIN vs XY
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2005, 04:48:20 PM »   

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Quote from: razorback on January 10, 2005, 04:17:04 PM
Quote from: Bean on January 10, 2005, 04:10:37 PM
hehe, xy kills the image IMO, try and run DIn or somewhere inbetween XY/DIN


agreed..the XY pull suxd too, it did clean it up a little(hear the instruments), but lost everything else...

i did run din first...and it had its faults too...


I think we as tapers (myself included) sometimes get too hung up on following exact positions like DIN, X-Y, yadda yadda yadda, where sometimes I feel they should be used more as a guideline.  Myself, if I am in a shitty sounding club I run hypers pointed at the outer edges of the stacks with a modicum (10-15cm) of separation.  I have received good results with that technique.  Sometimes you have to give up a little image for the sake of actually making a listenable tape.

good advice!