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Author Topic: Next step up in omnis from 4061's?  (Read 11092 times)

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adrianf74

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Re: Next step up in omnis from 4061's?
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2014, 02:43:11 PM »
Stop looking already -- there's _always_ gonna be something better out there.  I just seriously doubt the difference in money you're gonna spend is gonna equal that much of an improvement.  :)

Heck, I thought about AKG CK62 caps (since I don't have them) and ended up with 4061's and CA-11's.  The CK62's didn't make sense financially considering what I spent on the 4061's AND CA-11's.

Offline acidjack

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Re: Next step up in omnis from 4061's?
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2014, 02:48:17 PM »
Drooling over the compact/modular 4006's, anybody using these, and have some samples? Are they worth the money?

I have no doubt that the 4006 (and the Schoeps MK2) are better than the 4061, considerably so (for one, smoother frequency response). The question is what the intended use would be and how much the improvement would be worth. For the kind of money you're talking about, I'd put money in a better set of cardiods or hypers. Miniature omnis are a lot more comparable to larger omnis than miniature cards/hypers to their larger counterparts.
Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline yates7592

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Re: Next step up in omnis from 4061's?
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2014, 03:24:23 PM »
Adrianf and acidjack; yes I hear what you're saying, all good advice as usual.  Trouble is for the kind of taping I do, ie always right up front at stage lip,  cards and hypers just don't give me that "being there" feeling when listening back, which is the main reason I tape for   So I'm really only interested in (possibly) adding to my omni arsenal.

adrianf74

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Re: Next step up in omnis from 4061's?
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2014, 03:36:29 PM »
I think AJ (and Gutbucket before him) said it best in that the gain/improvement is only going to be so much and that the money isn't worth spending.  I've had discussions with both of them in private about this exact situation.  I was never a huge fan of the 4061's (I later figured out that my pair had a 4.7k mod done to them which isn't necessary and is more of a detriment) but came across a deal that couldn't be passed up (as you personally know about).  That said, I'm back to the 4061's, and I'm staying there.  Unless I'm gonna spend $2k+ on omnis (which I'm NOT doing), there's no point in moving to anything else. 

For kicks, the next time my buddy runs his CK62's on-stage (or at the lip), I'm gonna run my 4061's next to them just to hear the difference.  I'm willing to bet I might prefer the 4061's.

Offline yates7592

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Re: Next step up in omnis from 4061's?
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2014, 04:31:00 PM »
For kicks, the next time my buddy runs his CK62's on-stage (or at the lip), I'm gonna run my 4061's next to them just to hear the difference.  I'm willing to bet I might prefer the 4061's.

I think you're right, the 4061's would win!  ;D
BTW even "if" I did make this mad move, the 4061's are staying.

Offline yates7592

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Re: Next step up in omnis from 4061's?
« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2014, 03:12:04 AM »
I have no doubt that the 4006 are better than the 4061, considerably so (for one, smoother frequency response).

Oh man, I did not need to read this....

Offline acidjack

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Re: Next step up in omnis from 4061's?
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2014, 12:49:58 PM »
Adrianf and acidjack; yes I hear what you're saying, all good advice as usual.  Trouble is for the kind of taping I do, ie always right up front at stage lip,  cards and hypers just don't give me that "being there" feeling when listening back, which is the main reason I tape for   So I'm really only interested in (possibly) adding to my omni arsenal.

I'm not sure I understand that.  I've run omnis and cardiods and Fig 8 patterns onstage; omnis were consistently my least favorite (especially assuming we're talking about omnis mounted to your person / not spread).

Schoeps MK4V onstage (it's a matrix, but mostly AUD) - http://www.nyctaper.com/2013/09/desert-heat-september-6-2013-three-lobed-recordings-day-show-kings-raleigh-nc-flacmp3streaming/

Same venue, same spot, omnis at 2ft split or so: http://www.nyctaper.com/2012/10/gunn-truscinski-duo-september-7-2012-three-lobedwxdu-day-show-hopscotch-festival-raleigh-nc-flacmp3streaming/

Pretty hard to say the MK4V source isn't "being there" feeling, at least for me. In fact, I'd say it's vastly better.


Mics: Schoeps MK4V, MK41V, MK5, MK22> CMC6, KCY 250/5, KC5, NBob; MBHO MBP603/KA200N, AT 3031, DPA 4061 w/ d:vice, Naiant X-X, AT 853c, shotgun, Nak300
Pres/Power: Aerco MP2, tinybox v2  [KCY], CA-UBB
Decks: Sound Devices MixPre 6, Zoom F8, M10, D50

My recordings on nyctaper.com: http://www.nyctaper.com/?tag=acidjack | LMA: http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/acidjack | twitter: http://www.twitter.com/acidjacknyc | Soundcloud: https://soundcloud.com/acidjacknyc

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Next step up in omnis from 4061's?
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2014, 10:12:45 PM »
Nice recordings, those.
(just to be clear, none of what follows really has much to do with those examples)

I find cardioids often provide a sort of upper midrange presence and clarity that omnis often don't.  It's something I like that 'brings the music closer and clearer', I get more direct detail and a shaper focus on the primary subjects of the recording.  It often works much better for compromised listening, yet can work well for uncompromised listening too of course.  I find omnis provide an openness and sense of front/back depth that cards often don't.  It's something I like that 'takes me into that space' and I get more details of the environment in which the music is performed, the distances to the elements in it, and the other stuff going on.  It doesn't work nearly as well with compromised listening, requiring uncompromised listening to be effective.

Of course what I really want is the best of both.

I can sometimes manipulate my omni recordings to get most of the detail and presence I hear in my cardioid recordings.  I don't have the same skills to get the omni aspects out of my cardioid recordings in the same way.  But that may just be my lack of skills.. and there are plenty of situations were omnis simply are not the right choice at all and cardioids are the easily appropriate choice.

Often the best bet for me is using both, not as two separate recordings (although that might at times be wiser and safer), but setup with the intent of combining them.. or an array of cardioids (or supercardioids and cardioids), which taken together 'sample all directions' something like an omni in an overall multiple channel sense.. or ways of using omnis which makes them directional individually, but something like omnidirectional in combination..  or say four omnis not set up to be directional individually, combined to produce something sort of hyper-omnidirectional in a surrealistic and pleasing sort of way.  All different routes to what seems something of a common underlying theme of what I'm looking for in my recordings.

I was an unabashed omni enthusiast before becoming a cardioid and supercardioid enthusiast, and had to invest more to find cardioids of sufficient quality which I was as happy with in comparison to what I could get out of 4060s.   I also think that once I cross a certain threshold of quality, I see more benefit from messing around with unusual setups and combinations of mics and channels than I do from going to ever-higher quality microphones, as long as I approach that complexity in a well-reasoned way.  But part of that is what I choose to record, what opportunities I have to record, and how I go about recording it, which I fully recognize is somewhat atypical.. and inevitably once I do upgrade mics I find it hard to go back, even though it doesn't change that basic quality/verses/increased-dimensional dynamic, and it ever progresses like a spiral down the rabbit hole.

I dig that we don't all listen the same way or value the same things in music and in our recordings of it, or the ways we use it and enjoy it.  Otherwise this place and taping in general wouldn't be nearly as interesting.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline yates7592

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Re: Next step up in omnis from 4061's?
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2014, 08:16:57 AM »
When I said I don't get that "being there" feeling, what I should have said is I generally don't hear (or rather feel) that bottom end thump with cardioids. That's one of the main features I personally look for in a recording. Having said that, I appreciate there would be some advantages to mixing in a card/hyper source to taste in post.

Offline scb

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Re: Next step up in omnis from 4061's?
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2014, 10:16:16 AM »
Adrianf and acidjack; yes I hear what you're saying, all good advice as usual.  Trouble is for the kind of taping I do, ie always right up front at stage lip,  cards and hypers just don't give me that "being there" feeling when listening back, which is the main reason I tape for   So I'm really only interested in (possibly) adding to my omni arsenal.

When I said I don't get that "being there" feeling, what I should have said is I generally don't hear (or rather feel) that bottom end thump with cardioids. That's one of the main features I personally look for in a recording. Having said that, I appreciate there would be some advantages to mixing in a card/hyper source to taste in post.

you want the dpa wide cards. you just don't know it yet

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Next step up in omnis from 4061's?
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2014, 01:08:34 PM »
Those are what I would lust after if I allowed myself the indulgence to do so.. and the likely direction I would go if I was to spend that kind of cash with the idea of moving the DPA ladder from the 406x omnis.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline yates7592

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Re: Next step up in omnis from 4061's?
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2014, 02:10:34 PM »
@ scb and gutbucket:
Which model is the DPA wide card? Is that like some sort of subcard?

Offline scb

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Re: Next step up in omnis from 4061's?
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2014, 02:20:23 PM »
@ scb and gutbucket:
Which model is the DPA wide card? Is that like some sort of subcard?

4015
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=Item&category=233&item=24401

or the older compact 4026 (rear cable), 4027 (right angle cable), and 4028 (lemo cable)




Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Next step up in omnis from 4061's?
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2014, 03:25:20 PM »
Yeah, it's somwhere between a cardioid and an omni- 'subcardioid, widecardioid'.. the names are not always precise across manufacturers, even less so than 'supercardioid, hypercardioid'.

The key I think to the 4015 (and other quality sub/widecardioids) is the very well behaved off-axis consistency of the pattern below something like 8-10kHz, providing a very natural and uncolored response for sounds arriving from any direction, yet favoring sound arriving on-axis over sounds arriving from directly behind by about 10dB. 

It's sort of a 'directional omni' in a very consistant way across most of the frequency range.  It has most but not all of the flat bottom octave response of an omni.  I think it's a very interesting compromise.

Here's DPA's published response graph for the 4015. Compare it's 180 degree off-axis response to that of a typical cardioid-


Contrast those graphs with the 4011 cardioid-



And the 4006 omni (shown here with the diffuse field grid)-



The 4015 is somewhere between the two, yet it's polar pattern strikes me as somewhat more similar to the 4006, except for that 10dB front back difference.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 03:31:02 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Next step up in omnis from 4061's?
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2014, 03:39:10 PM »
Schoeps makes two capsules that are somewhere between a cardioid and an omni-

the MK21 Wide Cardioid-


and the MK22 Open Cardioid (which is more cardioid-ish)-


musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

 

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