Topic: can i run DIN with this?

[bagtagsell]

I see the picture of DIN configuration.  I understand the angle.  But the spacing is killing me.  I have a shure vert bar, a konig meyer t bar, and another T-bar that is 6 inches, and my LD shockmounts.  Where do I measure my 20cm from?  Front, center, middle?  Is it more important to have a 90 degree angle or 20cm.  Do I need an extender arm like he has in the picture? http://homepage.mac.com/gottajiboo40/PhotoAlbum11.html.  Thanks.

[caymanreview]

DIN would be 90°

i can get din with my TL's and a shure vert bar no problem

17cm for hypers DINa and 20cm for cards DIN

measure from the center of each cap

[bagtagsell]

Do you hang one "upside down" to align the horizontal plane

[bagtagsell]

Im thinking that it  doesn't matter

[caymanreview]

i do both upright. as long as there isnt a huge difference in the vertical plane, you are ok

i move the "spacers" on the vert bar to have the mounts both in the center to get the mics the closest

[ethan]

I used to run DIN with my A27.

It looks like you have shock guards that bend. Basicly from the X/Y position adjust them back if that makes sense. Set the A27 exacltly as it is in X/Y and create the 90 degree angle by adjusting just the shock mount. You'll of course need to measure it was easy with small diaphragm long body mics.



-e

[bagtagsell]

Which was should the front of the TLS point?

[caymanreview]

which way? at 45° angles to the stage, 90° angle for the mics
almost pointing at the stacks if you are close enough

[Brian]

Im thinking that it  doesn't matter

don't run your LD's horizontal.  some weird phase issues can occur.  they were designed to be run vertical.  i've done some tests and sure enough, it sounds better vertical.

although ymmv, LD microphones are designed to be run vertical....either upright or upside down.

[bagtagsell]

Thanks for all the help.  I can really see this now.  ONe more question.  The mic on the left hand side.  Should the "front" be pointed at the right stack, or the left stack.  in other words like xy is there the channel crossing?

[Brian]

Thanks for all the help.  I can really see this now.  ONe more question.  The mic on the left hand side.  Should the "front" be pointed at the right stack, or the left stack.  in other words like xy is there the channel crossing?

yeah don't do this either it wouldn't be DIN anymore.  just follow the pictures in the link you provided

[bagtagsell]

So would it look anything like this?
http://www.picjar.com/pub/bagtagsellit/Taping/P1210044.JPG

[Brian]

no, you are running horizontal and your mics are facing each other at no angle

that looks like horizontal AB @ 0º

****look at the pictures in the link you provided***** 

[caymanreview]

So would it look anything like this?
http://www.picjar.com/pub/bagtagsellit/Taping/P1210044.JPG

lol. not even close. you are running them horizontal. get them upright with the xlrs on the bottom. looks like the correct spacing, but you have a 180° angle. make it a 90°

[caymanreview]

i wish i had a digi cam

[Brian]

i think god is testing my patience today .....he doesn't need you to take pictures.......he's already got jason's in the link he provided

[bagtagsell]

Thanks for all the help, sorry for edifying noobness.  Umm is this right?
http://www.picjar.com/cp/photos/published/Taping/P1210046.JPG/

Don't have a protractor, but this seems greater than 90 degrees hower, it is 20 cm apart

[Brian]

i need a user name and login???

also 90º is REALLY easy to make.   just form an "L" with the mics and reposition it correctly

[caymanreview]

i think god is testing my patience today .....

LOL

[Brian]

i think god is testing my patience today .....

LOL

we got it taken care of in the PM's

[bagtagsell]

I just want to say thank you for everyone's help.  Please all point and laugh at me when you have the oppurtunity.  Oh well...now for something else

[Brian]

I just want to say thank you for everyone's help.  Please all point and laugh at me when you have the oppurtunity.  Oh well...now for something else

:LOL: i +t'ed ya to 17

[caymanreview]

I just want to say thank you for everyone's help.  Please all point and laugh at me when you have the oppurtunity.  Oh well...now for something else

when we meet up. you can bet il be fuckin w/you

[F.O.Bean]

good work guys, yinz got another one thru it all

[caymanreview]

good work guys, yinz got another one thru it all

def, it was tough but i think Brian got him sorted out

[blu666z]

Thanks for all the help, sorry for edifying noobness.  Umm is this right?
http://www.picjar.com/cp/photos/published/Taping/P1210046.JPG/

Don't have a protractor, but this seems greater than 90 degrees hower, it is 20 cm apart

That's very close...just tighten your angle up a bit and you've got it.

-Kevin

[JAH]

don't run your LD's horizontal.  some weird phase issues can occur.  they were designed to be run vertical.  i've done some tests and sure enough, it sounds better vertical.

WHAT!!!! enlighten me...how can this be circularly affected?  Is this some info from the manufacture or tapers wives tales ;-)...seriously though, I don't think it matters if the mic is on its side or not...the faceing of the diaphram is the front with the center being the center of the pattern that is a 3d image going around it from front to back ...w/ the patteren rolling off as designed...encompasing your face from nose out past the ears to the back of the head......IYKWIM
have you really experienced some weir phasing due to laying the mic on its side (w/ the xlr out to the side)...how do it know if it is upside down or sideways or "correct"?   
I don't think it does, Prolly just some other reason for whatever you heard or heard of.

rock on you big diaphram guy you 

jah
ps to get better sound on LD's.....go up front.
peace
jah

[Brian]

well actually i really believe it does matter.  it's all in the design of the microphone.  take a look at a variety of large diaphragm microphones.  then look at the guts and how the capsule is mounted.  while similar looking, each has it's own unique shape....specifically the casing of the capsule. those casings are specially designed a certain way so that the capsule inside recieves the audio signal in such a way that it helps define the sound of the microphone.    by putting the mic on the side your are now making the side of the capsule the "top" and it recieves the signal a different way than it would placed vertically. you are also placing undue stress, although minial, on how the capsule is mounted in the microphone.  i've talked about this with other audio engineers and the designers of the microphones themselves and they all agreed. 

[F.O.Bean]

brian, i always thought that was the way SD's worked too, but ive seen many ppl run them everywhichway and those all sounded the same, i cannot speak for LD's tho

[JAH]

well actually i really believe it does matter.  it's all in the design of the microphone.  take a look at a variety of large diaphragm microphones.  then look at the guts and how the capsule is mounted.  while similar looking, each has it's own unique shape....specifically the casing of the capsule. those casings are specially designed a certain way so that the capsule inside recieves the audio signal in such a way that it helps define the sound of the microphone.    by putting the mic on the side your are now making the side of the capsule the "top" and it recieves the signal a different way than it would placed vertically. you are also placing undue stress, although minial, on how the capsule is mounted in the microphone.  i've talked about this with other audio engineers and the designers of the microphones themselves and they all agreed. 

WHAT!  you mean it matters how it is orientated? Think I'd preferr one that wouldn't matter if I had to run a M/S or Verticle XY...why would they do such a thing? I've been told that the 414's don't matter on their orientation.
I'm familair with capsule construction and some of the tricks used to tune the patterns...I guess thats the reason the reason their affordable cost.... so how would that affect on stage recording??
So if you point the capsule to the ceiling and made the sound source rotate slowly around the capsule you will hear differently??  hummmm try it out and let me know.
How much is it affected by?  and this is SD's only (and mics in their price range)?

cool, peace
jah

[Brian]

well actually i really believe it does matter.  it's all in the design of the microphone.  take a look at a variety of large diaphragm microphones.  then look at the guts and how the capsule is mounted.  while similar looking, each has it's own unique shape....specifically the casing of the capsule. those casings are specially designed a certain way so that the capsule inside recieves the audio signal in such a way that it helps define the sound of the microphone.    by putting the mic on the side your are now making the side of the capsule the "top" and it recieves the signal a different way than it would placed vertically. you are also placing undue stress, although minial, on how the capsule is mounted in the microphone.  i've talked about this with other audio engineers and the designers of the microphones themselves and they all agreed. 

WHAT!  you mean it matters how it is orientated? Think I'd preferr one that wouldn't matter if I had to run a M/S or Verticle XY...why would they do such a thing? I've been told that the 414's don't matter on their orientation.
I'm familair with capsule construction and some of the tricks used to tune the patterns...I guess thats the reason the reason their affordable cost.... so how would that affect on stage recording??
So if you point the capsule to the ceiling and made the sound source rotate slowly around the capsule you will hear differently??  hummmm try it out and let me know.
How much is it affected by?  and this is SD's only (and mics in their price range)?

cool, peace
jah

ok jah, after reading your last post i think you are confused.....I"m talking about LD mikes, not SD mikes.  Bean has mentioned he's seen people run SD's every which way.  i would think that if you pointed your SD mikes towards the ceiling of the venue, or the sky, you would MOST DEFINITELY hear a difference then when mikes are pointed at the sound source.

so.......

i would think there would be a difference.  every pattern is most directional in the high frequencies.  it's in the high frequencies that the phase issues can occur.

keep in mind these are *MINOR*  differences.  some people might not even be able to hear them.  but since i've noticed a difference in my own experiments i choose to ONLY run vertical.

so i don't need to try anything cause i already have   you should try it and see what happens.

edit:  spelling....thanks admkrk

[admkrk]

i would think that if you pointed your CD mikes towards the ceiling of the venue, or the sky, you would MOST DEFINITELY hear a difference then when mikes are pointed at the sound source.

 

sure he's not using dat mics?

[Brian]

fixied

[admkrk]

yep, that makes more sence. but back to the point.  unless you can change the orientation of the capsel, wouldn't it be the same w/ ld vs. sd?

[Brian]

no because the casing of the capsule is speciifically designed to take in sound that way.  or at least that is what i believe to be true.    i really can't say anything more other than i've tried this with my tl's at live shows, PA taping, as well as on vocals and acoustic guitars in the studio with a u87 and a TL.  i've tried it.  i've experimented.  my ears tell me they sound different.  that's really all i can say.

[admkrk]

guess i'm not being clear, or just don't understand.

mics are designed to "point" in a particular direction, as i understand it, based on the capsel regaurdless of ld/sd. take a stereo mic for example(neumann sm69) if you were to run this horizontal, wouldn't you be picking up sound from the vertical plane? granted noone here is likely to use this, but, if you're not pointing the capsel towards the sound then you're recording what it's pointed at.  ground, sky, the nitwit next to you...........  i don't know, maybe i'm not right here but, if you want to shoot somebody you useualy point the gun at them, not in the air.

please correct me if i'm off base here.

                          kirk

[Brian]

good lord......this thread is going nowhere.  I'm not defending running horizontal with LD'.! I'm defending why you should run LD's **vertical**

it's obvious you are misunderstanding what i am talking about because i agree with everything you just said.    it appears you are also disregarding the comments on the casing of the capsule in LD's.  I sugguest re-reading the thread from the start.  everything i've said should make sense then.  i really can't think of any other ways to explain it. 

edit:  correct my frustrations

[admkrk]

wooohh, settle down,  confusion's my middle name.  i was just thinking out loud there.  i guess i did get turned around a bit.

     

[Brian]

yeah sorry about that. that was kinda over the top.  i was frustrated i couldn't get find the exact right words to explain it. does any of that make any sense yet?

once again, my apologies...+T

[admkrk]

yeah it makes perfect sence. i've seen lds run both ways, and was always confused on the matter. unless the caps are movable, like some are, running them horizontal would be like pointing my naks at the ground(or sky). as far as upsidedown goes, that would make as much diff. as having the switch up, down, sideways, what ever. at least that's the way i see it.

this is all the major reason i've mostly avoided looking at lds. too much conflicting points of view.

[JAH]

ok jah, after reading your last post i think you are confused.....I"m talking about LD mikes, not SD mikes.  Bean has mentioned he's seen people run SD's every which way.  i would think that if you pointed your SD mikes towards the ceiling of the venue, or the sky, you would MOST DEFINITELY hear a difference then when mikes are pointed at the sound source.

so.......

i would think there would be a difference.  every pattern is most directional in the high frequencies.  it's in the high frequencies that the phase issues can occur.

keep in mind these are *MINOR*  differences.  some people might not even be able to hear them.  but since i've noticed a difference in my own experiments i choose to ONLY run vertical.

so i don't need to try anything cause i already have   you should try it and see what happens.

edit:  spelling....thanks admkrk

Sorry STL, I meant TL and not SD...I had read Bean's comments on SD and inadverntly put SD in place of TL's...I was asking if this is a TL trait? or LD trait....thinking TL's and not the higher end LD mics.
My point of aiming the caps to the sky is so that you could go around the cap w/ a source and see (hear) what affect, if any, that was to be had....KWIM?

SO...you say any differences is heard in the HF...that would make sense since it is most directional of the freqs.  So you hear a Phasing affect when not orientated vertically.....interesting...I respect your findings as they are yours...I don't have LD to my availability, so no can do...which is why I asked you (or anyone w/ TL's) to do so...of which you apparently have...cool
I just find it baffeling why a 3 d image would be affected by orientation other than it is not truely an equal 3d image due to its design trade-offs for affordability.
I would like to hear from higher end LD users w/ orientation and their affects...so to your ears it matters if it is right side up Vs upside down Vs horz....does it become more focased to you when vertical?

peace bro and it would be nice to hook up w/ you on one of my STL visits...but for now I'm in chilly shitcago and wanting to go home, but the $3 Tuesdaynight Newcastle pints are a comfort

jah

jah

[Brian]

I believe it to be inherant in ALL LD's.   it all has to do with how the audio gets reflected inside the casing before it hits the actual capsule.  think about it that way.  it's a lot easier to explain with visuals, but, alas, my drawing abilities are very bad.

can't go wrong with $3 newkies!  good times!  Let me know if you ever make ti down to STL and i'll do the same if i ever make it up to the windy city

[dnsacks]

Actually, I believe the orientation issue is shared by SIDE ADDRESS mics of all types.  I first became aware of this issue with schoeps mk4v mics -- the following url links to a schoeps article/email recommending that the 4v always be run vertically and describing the effects and reason for same -- http://www.oade.com/cgi-bin/miva?Forum/showmsg.mv+message=8295

[Brian]

thanks for the link dnsacks!  +T

that's a damn good explanation.....much better than what  i tried to say

[Tim]

well actually i really believe it does matter.  it's all in the design of the microphone.  take a look at a variety of large diaphragm microphones.  then look at the guts and how the capsule is mounted.  while similar looking, each has it's own unique shape....specifically the casing of the capsule. those casings are specially designed a certain way so that the capsule inside recieves the audio signal in such a way that it helps define the sound of the microphone.    by putting the mic on the side your are now making the side of the capsule the "top" and it recieves the signal a different way than it would placed vertically. you are also placing undue stress, although minial, on how the capsule is mounted in the microphone.  i've talked about this with other audio engineers and the designers of the microphones themselves and they all agreed. 

robert kwon and I talked about this some bit once, he hadn't done the testing yet but he had the same thoughts as Brian.

[Tim]

Actually, I believe the orientation issue is shared by SIDE ADDRESS mics of all types.  I first became aware of this issue with schoeps mk4v mics -- the following url links to a schoeps article/email recommending that the 4v always be run vertically and describing the effects and reason for same -- http://www.oade.com/cgi-bin/miva?Forum/showmsg.mv+message=8295

that post is from Robert Kwon

[JAH]

Actually, I believe the orientation issue is shared by SIDE ADDRESS mics of all types.  I first became aware of this issue with schoeps mk4v mics -- the following url links to a schoeps article/email recommending that the 4v always be run vertically and describing the effects and reason for same -- http://www.oade.com/cgi-bin/miva?Forum/showmsg.mv+message=8295

Hey now!  This is WRT SIDE ADDRESS mics....do LD's fall in this category??? Thinking not, but not really sure???

I believe it to be inherant in ALL LD's.   it all has to do with how the audio gets reflected inside the casing before it hits the actual capsule.  think about it that way.  it's a lot easier to explain with visuals, but, alas, my drawing abilities are very bad.

can't go wrong with $3 newkies!  good times!  Let me know if you ever make ti down to STL and i'll do the same if i ever make it up to the windy city

My conversations w/ Mr. Oade reinforce that is does not matter on the orientation w/ the higher end mics...regardless, I doubt seriously that "I" would be able to hear the diff.  ...esp. since several sources have said "it would be minimal if any"...it's all good!

I occasionally make it to STL but lessor and lessor these days ;-( but the good part is that my program there is winding down ;-)  obtw I'm in MD, just in shitcago for the week...still give a hollar ..there are many of us who would host.

peace
jah