Topic: I've realized why on-stage and stage-lip taping is so great>

[grider]

I've been transferring some of my recent on-stage recordings lately, and listening to them critically, specifically listening for good sound qualities like balance and stereo separation, but also listening for undesireable sound qualities like echo, lack of balance, chatter, and anomolies like the random kick to the stand or whatever, and what I have realized more than anything else is that taping from the stage itself makes my recordings consistently better each time than any other variable I can control; its simple to do, a safe place to place the mics and stand, it eliminates most background noise and chatter when using cards (hypers would bring in the rear lobe of the audience itself), it provides a very clear stereo separation, and it eliminates odd room acoustics that can just ruin an otherwise good recording; case in point:  the Subterranean in Chicago, which is a terrible room to tape in, and I taped the same band there twice now with stunningly different results, and this room is very long and narrow and high (two stories) with wood panneling throughout, in other words its an echo chamber; last 10/04 I taped from behind the soundboard about halfway back from the stage, running 483>V3>DAP1 and using DIN, result:  hollow, echoey, basically unlistenable recording, due the sound just bouncing all around the room; second time I ran on-stage, again DIN, using 481>UA5>DAP1, about 24 inches off the floor, and its a superior recording, no echo, no boom, minimal chatter, crisp cymbals and punchy drums on the right, pronounced bass just a little to the left, lead guitar to the left of that, and bongos and fingerpad on the far left, lead guitar in the middle, its all perfectly identifiable based on the location of the amps on stage, and the sound I captured was not the house PA but instead the sound produced by each band members' own hand-selected amps; I have concluded that in any setting other than a really large room or venue, setting up and recording as close to the source as possible is the only way to go, oh and no stand or rig to protect at the expense of enjoying the show anymore either

[mmmatt]

(hypers would bring in the rear lobe of the audience itself),

Don't hypers reject more rear sound than cards?  Maybe I'm confused!  Anyway, I agree with you Chris... stage is the shit with amplified, nonvocal bands.  I did get burned once though going low to the floor... about 8 or 10 inches from the floor for the bad plus.  The sound from the grand piano was really weak.  If I would have been up at the level of the piano's lid it would have been much better.  I tried but FOH shut me down... In that case (a nice room anyways) I should have gone fob.  I do love stage though.

Matt

[ethan]

Don't tape many bands with volcals or horns do you?

[grider]

(hypers would bring in the rear lobe of the audience itself),

Don't hypers reject more rear sound than cards?

other way around as I understand it, Matt, the hypercardiods have a rear lobe pick-up pattern that the cardiods do not, which is why I ran cardiods instead, with excellent results, I think hypers would be disastrous so close to people being directly behind them; the only pitfalls I have identified would be placing the mics too close to the source so that they are hovering above the band's own monitors facing them with the sound from those mics bleeding into the recording or causing phase issues, or not picking up much or any sound from the instruments mic'd only through the house PA, or simply not having a stage big enough to accomodate the band and their equipment and a mic stand, that's about it from what I have seen in my novice taper's eyes; a very cool device I bought just two weeks ago when I saw another taper using it for a tiny on-stage rig is this kick-drum mic stand, rather than retractable feet they are these three fat and heavy iron feet, in a fixed position sitting flush on the floor, then a fixed vertical pole sticking out of it, with a smaller parallel pole that canbe raised or lowered at the end of which is a 3/8 inch threading, its so low profile it can fit virtually anywhere and it can be raised to about 5 feet or so when fully extended, and it was only 35 dollars at Sam Ash, makes this type of intrusive taping much more pallatable for bands to put up with and agree to

[grider]

Don't tape many bands with volcals or horns do you?

no, almost none, all instrumental, bands like STS9, Lotus, Signal Path, RW20thC, Duo, JMP, Tortoise, Scofield, Particle, and not a lyric in the bunch that I can recall, horns with JMP I suppose, there admittedly are other bands with vocals that I would love to tape on-stage or stage-lip but could never get away with doing so like Bisco for example

[Chuck]

I also have an Atlas kick drum stand I kept after my sound reinforcement company was closed. I think it's the best on stage stand too. The little extension arm lets me position the mics anywhere from about 1" to 4' up.

[bluegrass_brad]

Hypers have that nasty lobe directly behind that cards lack.  They will pick up shit directly behind them like crazy.  Thats the bitch about using some of the hyper card vocal mics with bands that have onstage monitors.  If they like the monitor on the floor directly behind the mic, and have the mic angled too much (cap towards mouth, end towards floor, usually pointing directly at the damn monitor) it is a bitch to turn up without feedback.

[ethan]

Don't tape many bands with volcals or horns do you?

no, almost none, all instrumental, bands like STS9, Lotus, Signal Path, RW20thC, Duo, JMP, Tortoise, Scofield, Particle, and not a lyric in the bunch that I can recall, horns with JMP I suppose, there admittedly are other bands with vocals that I would love to tape on-stage or stage-lip but could never get away with doing so like Bisco for example

Well as soon as you tape someone with vocal on-stage you won't like the results as much I guarentee it.

[Chanher]

Don't tape many bands with volcals or horns do you?

no, almost none, all instrumental, bands like STS9, Lotus, Signal Path, RW20thC, Duo, JMP, Tortoise, Scofield, Particle, and not a lyric in the bunch that I can recall, horns with JMP I suppose, there admittedly are other bands with vocals that I would love to tape on-stage or stage-lip but could never get away with doing so like Bisco for example

Well as soon as you tape someone with vocal on-stage you won't like the results as much I guarentee it.

yeah that's the big problem. I've heard recomendations that if you can get your mics relatively close to the monitors that you can make up some of that vocal loss. I've tried it three times with mixed results; one time it was pretty sweet, but I think that's because the stage set-up was pretty simple and well done.  the others were so-so; they did kinda fill the vocals but the other instruments from the monitor mix sounded funny. not bad, but not up to par with the usual on-stage mix.

My FAVORITE technique in the world is on-stage mics + sbd matrix.  There's no delay issues and the sbd fills the vocals oh-so nice. [drool]

[svenkid]

conversely, I run my hypers onstage, and the rear lobe thingee pics up the vocals 

there is a venue here that is the WORST. the only way I can tape is onstage. Ive pulled it just fine 4-5 times.
seperation of sound, its great. 

[mmmatt]

Hypers have that nasty lobe directly behind that cards lack.  They will pick up shit directly behind them like crazy.  Thats the bitch about using some of the hyper card vocal mics with bands that have onstage monitors.  If they like the monitor on the floor directly behind the mic, and have the mic angled too much (cap towards mouth, end towards floor, usually pointing directly at the damn monitor) it is a bitch to turn up without feedback.

Having never owned hypers I did not know this!

My FAVORITE technique in the world is on-stage mics + sbd matrix.  There's no delay issues and the sbd fills the vocals oh-so nice. [drool]

I agree here for sure... Great technique with the right band/venue.  Keep in mind it only works if there is on stage amplification.

Matt

[Evil Taper]

i ran omnis at about stage lip for Big Bad Voodoo Daddy and it's definately one of my favorite recordings.  i got unmic'd cowbell and great horn sound that wouldn't have shown up FOB.  the vocals are perfect in the mix but there was an entire slew of shorty vocal amps on the actual front flip of the stage.  so even at an amphitheater you can swing it with the right band (but the upright bass is low since the subs are hanging).

[cgrooves]

Evil Taper,

What configuration did you run the Omnis in?

I ran my omnis at stage lip using the Healy method once (actually split the caps wider than Healy method).  Turned out ok, but next time I am going to try something different.

[mmmatt]

split em 6-8' and you are golden... most forgiving stage config you can do IMHO.  Just don't be too concerned with dead center but more concerned with where the sound is coming from.  ie.. don't stick one right in front of any loud indtrument.

Matt

[F.O.Bean]

Don't tape many bands with volcals or horns do you?

no, almost none, all instrumental, bands like STS9, Lotus, Signal Path, RW20thC, Duo, JMP, Tortoise, Scofield, Particle, and not a lyric in the bunch that I can recall, horns with JMP I suppose, there admittedly are other bands with vocals that I would love to tape on-stage or stage-lip but could never get away with doing so like Bisco for example

Well as soon as you tape someone with vocal on-stage you won't like the results as much I guarentee it.

yeah that's the big problem. I've heard recomendations that if you can get your mics relatively close to the monitors that you can make up some of that vocal loss. I've tried it three times with mixed results; one time it was pretty sweet, but I think that's because the stage set-up was pretty simple and well done.  the others were so-so; they did kinda fill the vocals but the other instruments from the monitor mix sounded funny. not bad, but not up to par with the usual on-stage mix.

My FAVORITE technique in the world is on-stage mics + sbd matrix.  There's no delay issues and the sbd fills the vocals oh-so nice. [drool]

agreed, i do the onstage+sbd mix sometimes on some smaller bands i know, always a fun mix for sure, and usually the ONLY way to get a decent tape out of a shitty club/venue

[BC]

agreed, i do the onstage+sbd mix sometimes on some smaller bands i know, always a fun mix for sure, and usually the ONLY way to get a decent tape out of a shitty club/venue

How do you do the mix? Just wondering b/c in your sig there is no mixing device.

Peace,
BC

[grider]

agreed, i do the onstage+sbd mix sometimes on some smaller bands i know, always a fun mix for sure, and usually the ONLY way to get a decent tape out of a shitty club/venue

How do you do the mix? Just wondering b/c in your sig there is no mixing device.

Peace,
BC

Ben I believe Bean mixes the sources in post production, my recording of Urbana turned out super well by the way, it will be on archive in a week or so

[ethan]

When I do a m4t1x I do it on the fly with a soundcraft notepad mixer when I have AC and a Sampson mixpad when I can only run DC.

I only do these when I'm in with the band and can get things tuned during sound check.

-e

[BC]

Ben I believe Bean mixes the sources in post production, my recording of Urbana turned out super well by the way, it will be on archive in a week or so

nice! The 40 min or so that I taped    sounded pretty good, other than a 5 sec block of white noise that scared the crap out of me when I had the stereo cranked after the show that night!          

[F.O.Bean]

BC- i do it in post when i have a couple jb3's at hand some nites, and transfer them going jb3>jb3 via a 4pin>4pin firewire cable, and do the matrix in wavelab 5.0's audio montage

quite easy w/ no delay, i try to make sure they are aligned every 40-60 mins, pretty damn easy once ya do it a few times, took me 6+ months to learn how to do the first one tho

[Evil Taper]

Evil Taper,

What configuration did you run the Omnis in?

I ran my omnis at stage lip using the Healy method once (actually split the caps wider than Healy method).  Turned out ok, but next time I am going to try something different.

HRTF from the front row, it was stealth.

[CHURCH-AUDIO]

I've been transferring some of my recent on-stage recordings lately, and listening to them critically, specifically listening for good sound qualities like balance and stereo separation, but also listening for undesireable sound qualities like echo, lack of balance, chatter, and anomolies like the random kick to the stand or whatever, and what I have realized more than anything else is that taping from the stage itself makes my recordings consistently better each time than any other variable I can control; its simple to do, a safe place to place the mics and stand, it eliminates most background noise and chatter when using cards (hypers would bring in the rear lobe of the audience itself), it provides a very clear stereo separation, and it eliminates odd room acoustics that can just ruin an otherwise good recording; case in point:  the Subterranean in Chicago, which is a terrible room to tape in, and I taped the same band there twice now with stunningly different results, and this room is very long and narrow and high (two stories) with wood panneling throughout, in other words its an echo chamber; last 10/04 I taped from behind the soundboard about halfway back from the stage, running 483>V3>DAP1 and using DIN, result:  hollow, echoey, basically unlistenable recording, due the sound just bouncing all around the room; second time I ran on-stage, again DIN, using 481>UA5>DAP1, about 24 inches off the floor, and its a superior recording, no echo, no boom, minimal chatter, crisp cymbals and punchy drums on the right, pronounced bass just a little to the left, lead guitar to the left of that, and bongos and fingerpad on the far left, lead guitar in the middle, its all perfectly identifiable based on the location of the amps on stage, and the sound I captured was not the house PA but instead the sound produced by each band members' own hand-selected amps; I have concluded that in any setting other than a really large room or venue, setting up and recording as close to the source as possible is the only way to go, oh and no stand or rig to protect at the expense of enjoying the show anymore either

[Nick's Picks]

ever run XY on stage?
IMO, its the best way to do it.

blumlein is king, of course.  and that has plenty of "rear lobe" facing the audience.
using hypers...w/that little rear lobe you mention, will not result in more crowd.  that little squirt of pickup out the back is out of phase, and will likely result in a nice affect of realism.  Just as the OOP information in blumlein and M/S works.

[grider]

ever run XY on stage?
IMO, its the best way to do it.

blumlein is king, of course.  and that has plenty of "rear lobe" facing the audience.
using hypers...w/that little rear lobe you mention, will not result in more crowd.  that little squirt of pickup out the back is out of phase, and will likely result in a nice affect of realism.  Just as the OOP information in blumlein and M/S works.

if you are asking me, Nick, about running XY, the answer is a no, I really dislike this configuration and never run it, it produced a weird and unnatural sounding recording the one and only time I ran it, which was in a small club about twenty feet back from the stage in a tiny place, the recording should have sounded great, mics in XY about 9 feet high lashed to a pole in direct center of the floor; results: a bizarre sounding recording made with my 483>MiniMe>DAP1 rig, check it out on the archive for a listen if you care to, its Signal Path from 5-1-04 and sadly I was the only taper that night, and I have not used XY since; now, quite differently, for a recording using DIN instead, and on stage, stream my recent Lotus show also on the archive recorded on 10-27-05, that's the real deal in my opinion and illustrates the whole reason why I started this thread, a little more chatter than I would have preferred at moments but there were people directly behind my mic stand the whole show, but thanks for the mic configuration suggestions nonetheless

[rustoleum]

I agree, grider.  I hate XY w/ my 480s.

[F.O.Bean]

I agree, grider.  I hate XY w/ my 480s.

QFT

unless im stack taping RIGHT UP ON THE CABINET and in a shitty sounding club(pittsburgh deli company) im running DIN

[marc0789]

(hypers would bring in the rear lobe of the audience itself),

Don't hypers reject more rear sound than cards?  Maybe I'm confused!  Anyway, I agree with you Chris... stage is the shit with amplified, nonvocal bands.  I did get burned once though going low to the floor... about 8 or 10 inches from the floor for the bad plus.  The sound from the grand piano was really weak.  If I would have been up at the level of the piano's lid it would have been much better.  I tried but FOH shut me down... In that case (a nice room anyways) I should have gone fob.  I do love stage though.

Matt

unlike cards, hypers have a rear lobe.

[darkfunk]

I almost always tape on-stage and while I love the crispness and immediacy of the recordings sometimes the stereo image is a little extreme.  Anyone else find this?  I'm almost tempted to center stuff a bit in post, but maybe thats just because my ear is accustomed to the lack of stereo image found in studio recordings.

[mmmatt]

ever run XY on stage?
IMO, its the best way to do it.

blumlein is king, of course.  and that has plenty of "rear lobe" facing the audience.
using hypers...w/that little rear lobe you mention, will not result in more crowd.  that little squirt of pickup out the back is out of phase, and will likely result in a nice affect of realism.  Just as the OOP information in blumlein and M/S works.

I agree Nick... x/y on stage is usually spectacular.  If the mics have a decent presence boost, it gets a little brittle imho.  I love my c-4's and c-1's on stage, but I'm not a big fan of my ho's on stage in xy.  My preference (with my mics) is ho split omnis, c-1's xy, then c-4s xy.  I should try ortf or din on stage one of these days with the ho's... maybe do a comp with my r-4 next chance I get.  I love the xy image up close... nice and tight like your chin is on the stage.

Matt

[Nick's Picks]

i'm a firm believer in coincident stereo techniques.


didn't start out that way.  I was the original XY basher.

[JasonSobel]

I almost always tape on-stage and while I love the crispness and immediacy of the recordings sometimes the stereo image is a little extreme.  Anyone else find this?  I'm almost tempted to center stuff a bit in post, but maybe thats just because my ear is accustomed to the lack of stereo image found in studio recordings.

Brett -
I've found that sometimes as well (of course, it all depends on the how the band is setup).  The best way I've found to avoid that is to run on-stage split omnis.  the few times I've done that, I still get a nice stereo image, but it isn't as "extreme" as with cards ORTF.
oh, and by the way, when did you pick up a pair of gefells?   and do you know Matt? ("ingsy" on this board).  he's in Boston and has a pair of the m27 omni caps.  if you get in touch with him, he'll probably let you borrow those caps to try them out

[grider]

fyi, for anyone who has been posting in or reading this thread, or who is interested in this topic and this type of taping (on-stage), Bean now has a couple of my pulls from on-stage placement on the archive, they are Lotus from 10-21-05 and 10-27-05, give them a listen if you care to, I'd be interested in feedback of any type

[F.O.Bean]

my feedback is THEY FREAKIN SMOKE

d/l these if youre at all interested in lotus!

[Tall Adam]

there admittedly are other bands with vocals that I would love to tape on-stage or stage-lip but could never get away with doing so like Bisco for example

onstage bisco tapes would kick ass...just make sure to get NONE of the vocal monitors, theyd be sweet! 

i love onstage too, but ive found that the general public doesnt always love it. i pulled one tape where my friend complained that the bass and guitar were in seperate channels. i personally like stereo seperation, but i guess i can see his complaint.

[kskreider]

i'm a firm believer in coincident stereo techniques.


didn't start out that way.  I was the original XY basher.

I almost ALWAYS run my 140's x/y 90 degrees when I go on stage or lip.  I also find that tilting the sth mount so that the mics are facing up a little bit helps me capture a little more vocals if there is a singer. 

[Roving Sign]

I almost always tape on-stage and while I love the crispness and immediacy of the recordings sometimes the stereo image is a little extreme.  Anyone else find this?  I'm almost tempted to center stuff a bit in post, but maybe thats just because my ear is accustomed to the lack of stereo image found in studio recordings.

Agreed - my next series of onstage recordings will have the channels panned in to the center a bit...

[mmmatt]

I almost always tape on-stage and while I love the crispness and immediacy of the recordings sometimes the stereo image is a little extreme.  Anyone else find this?  I'm almost tempted to center stuff a bit in post, but maybe thats just because my ear is accustomed to the lack of stereo image found in studio recordings.

Agreed - my next series of onstage recordings will have the channels panned in to the center a bit...

One of my favorite things about onstage is the acurate image... I love it.  No matter where I place my mic's on stage I always try to center on the drum set.  I love hearing the drummer move around the set.

Matt

[Roving Sign]

I have some drum mic clips that I clamp on to the guitarists mic stands...about 24 inches up...usually 6-10 feet apart...pointed away from the drums...toward the guitarists speakers...sort of in between the two...

Strangely enough I think the cardioids work best...the omnis tend to sound like 2 recordings played at the same time...they dont image the way you might think up close...YMMV

http://audio38.archive.org/2/audio/londonfile2004-11-26.shnf/londonfile2004-11-26d2t07_vbr.mp3

[krebsy]

On stage is one place where I think M/S is at it's most useful. Adjusting the stereo image to your taste after the fact just can't be beat!!

[darkfunk]

I got the MGs back in oct.  I met Matt @ the zeit benevento/russo/haas show and would love to borrow those m27s for the fringe sometime (except ill probably realize that i need to buy my own pair  ). 

Brett -
I've found that sometimes as well (of course, it all depends on the how the band is setup).  The best way I've found to avoid that is to run on-stage split omnis.  the few times I've done that, I still get a nice stereo image, but it isn't as "extreme" as with cards ORTF.
oh, and by the way, when did you pick up a pair of gefells?   and do you know Matt? ("ingsy" on this board).  he's in Boston and has a pair of the m27 omni caps.  if you get in touch with him, he'll probably let you borrow those caps to try them out

[ho]

One of my favorite things about onstage is the acurate image... I love it.  No matter where I place my mic's on stage I always try to center on the drum set.  I love hearing the drummer move around the set.

Matt

I must agree, I love the drums sound with onstage. Some of MMW stage-lip recordings are my favorites.

[bluegrass_brad]

I must agree, I love the drums sound with onstage. Some of MMW stage-lip recordings are my favorites.
[/quote]

I really like onstage drums as well.  Nothing beats natural decay.  Onstage there are no gates and no compression, no reverb.  Just wood resonating and drum heads slapping!

[mmmatt]

I must agree, I love the drums sound with onstage. Some of MMW stage-lip recordings are my favorites.

I really like onstage drums as well.  Nothing beats natural decay.  Onstage there are no gates and no compression, no reverb.  Just wood resonating and drum heads slapping!
[/quote]

I think brad is gettin' a chubby!   

Matt

[bluegrass_brad]

No I swear, it's just the drum heads making that slapping noise

[F.O.Bean]

No I swear, it's just the drum heads making that slapping noise

+T

[mmmatt]

No I swear, it's just the drum heads making that slapping noise

   touche'

Matt