Topic: Sony PCM-M10 (Part 6)

[vanark]

I think most use the instructions from guysonic's web site...

Following guysonic's advice has cured this type of problem for a lot of tapers:
Clean & recondition noisy mic. jacks with 91 - 99% pure isopropyl alcohol. Repeatedly insert a headphone type plug soaked to the point of dripping (filling the alcohol bottle cap and dipping only the metal part of the mini-plug works well) into the mic. jack until any connection noise disappears. Monitor the progress with a set of headphones while the deck is in a record function. Rotating the microphones plug should not produce audible noise with cleaned and conditioned contacts. Applying a contact conditioner to already cleaned plug and jack metal parts (Stereo retailer & Sonic Studios available Pro-Gold by Caig Labs works great) once to several times a year will help protect contacts from corrosion/wear and from producing noise for much longer between cleanings.

CAUTION ADVISED: AVOID PLACING CONTACT CLEANER ON ANYTHING BUT THE METAL CONNECTOR PARTS; Plastics can be softened, discolored, and even dissolved! This may actually coat the very metal contacts intended for cleaning! Fortunately, deck input jacks are reasonably resistant to alcohol and most ‘plastic safe’ cleaners when used occasionally and with care.
WARNING: Never spray anything into the jacks on a deck. Most Mini-DECK jacks are not the enclosed type anymore, but are open, allowing sprays to go where they can cause mechanical problems with the tape transport mechanisms and coat the tape heads. Use the method described above with the mini-plug OR purchase a special insertable cleaning brush from CAIG or Sonic Studios (a round shaver cleaning brush may also be used with careful attention to the delicate nature of these mini-jacks).

[pontiacb]

^
Many thanks for the above- I'll give it a go and report back!

Just done a bit of googling which suggests isopropyl alcohol isn't easy to get at chemists in the UK, but have have just ordered a small bottle on eBay for £4 inc postage, so hopefully will get it to do the clean before next weekend's two gigs.

[James Lopez]

As i mentioned in my post b4, the pcm-m10 that i bought had the left channel about 4-5dB hotter than the right. I took it back and tried another (the last they had on stock) that, to my surprise, suffered from the same issue, albeit to a lesser degree, about 2-3dB. As much as id love to keep it, it seems to me that Sony's quality control has some pretty serious issues. IMHO selling professional grade recorders with obvious (and varying) channel calibration problems is unacceptable, even if this occurs only with internal mics (didnt try line in performance). I ended up going for the LS-11, hopefully i wont regret it.. Thanx for the advice and for all the time people dedicate here to test and inform.

[yousef]

I duuno. I really don't think the M10 is a "pro-grade" recorder. It's pro-sumer at best.

A consistent difference between the two channels is easily rectified in post and is a small price to pay for the deck's other benefits, especially at this low price-point.

Perhaps the LS10 is a move in the right direction for you but I think my M10 would have to do a lot worse than this before I considered changing deck.

[rastasean]

I would have to agree with yousef, this is not professional and the decibel difference between the two channels are not too much. Have you recorded audio and listened to it? Can you tell the difference by not looking at the levels in playback?

[it-goes-to-eleven]

The line input on my m10 is matched closer than 0.1 dB.

If the cheap built-in mics do not meet your requirements, buy real mics (with a matching certificate), or fix it in post.

[James Lopez]

I would have to agree with yousef, this is not professional and the decibel difference between the two channels are not too much. Have you recorded audio and listened to it? Can you tell the difference by not looking at the levels in playback?

The difference between L&R was close to 5dB which i consider rather big. Yes, there was an obvious difference in volume when played back (tested with dialog, guitar, xaphoon, melodica). The fact that i can correct it in post isnt by any means a solution (imho) when one cannot monitor the recording properly due to lack of balance. Having to widen the stereo image, equalize distinctly M/S information and balance levels seems a bit too much considering what i want this recorder for. And that is (as mentioned b4) use of line-in (SD302 + selection of mics) and use of int mics for xpress situations. I am not planning to buy PIP mics that would require use of the mic input.

EDIT: Thanx for all the comments and advice, much appreciated.

[yousef]

Having to widen the stereo image, equalize distinctly M/S information and balance levels

[JasonR]

... equalize distinctly M/S information ...

You're not recording Mid-Side, are you?  It wouldn't be abnormal for the mid and side components to be significantly different levels.

[James Lopez]

I havent made myself clear.. When refering to MS information i wasnt talking about Mid-Side signals in an MS recording scenario (something impossible with the m10's omni pair). i was referring to the spectral difference between information in the center of the stereo image and the sides (something mentioned here as well). Anyway, i felt like i wouldnt miss much going for the LS-11 instead of the M10, considering that for pro use (as a 2 track, line-in fed recorder) the LS-11 has very similar low-noise performance. Hopefully its internals wont prove too noisy..

[James Lopez]

Ok... As with all audio products, there's no review/opinion/comment that can really surpass one's personal experience. Yes, the LS-11 has more prominent stereo image. Yes, it does not suffer from level difference between the two internals. BUT.. After recording with both machines in a very quiet space i have no doubt in mind that the PCM-M10 internals are WAY quieter than the ones on the LS-11. So, as much as skeptical as i may be about the levels imbalance, noise is definitely a bigger issue for me. All in all, here is another PCM-M10 owner, big thanx to everybody here for the guidance and opinions.

[Todd R]

Ok... As with all audio products, there's no review/opinion/comment that can really surpass one's personal experience. Yes, the LS-11 has more prominent stereo image. Yes, it does not suffer from level difference between the two internals. BUT.. After recording with both machines in a very quiet space i have no doubt in mind that the PCM-M10 internals are WAY quieter than the ones on the LS-11. So, as much as skeptical as i may be about the levels imbalance, noise is definitely a bigger issue for me. All in all, here is another PCM-M10 owner, big thanx to everybody here for the guidance and opinions.

Well, as long as you're leaning back to the M10 -- I don't think there is necessarily anything to worry about regarding spectral information and stereo imaging regarding the M10's internal mics just because they are different in output level.

If they are relatively well matched with their relative output vs frequency and are just different in overall output, you shouldn't need to worry about anything other than matching up their output in post production.  Meaning, all you need to do is add 5db to the lower output mic and you should be fine.

If the mics do have different frequency responses (and mics that are matched in level could still be unmatched in frequency response), then you would need to correct them somehow in post to address overall level imbalance and frequency response imbalance.

As a starting point though, I wouldn't worry about spectral differences and would just add the 5db in post to the lower channel.  Hopefully this will correct your stereo image.

[James Lopez]

Ok... As with all audio products, there's no review/opinion/comment that can really surpass one's personal experience. Yes, the LS-11 has more prominent stereo image. Yes, it does not suffer from level difference between the two internals. BUT.. After recording with both machines in a very quiet space i have no doubt in mind that the PCM-M10 internals are WAY quieter than the ones on the LS-11. So, as much as skeptical as i may be about the levels imbalance, noise is definitely a bigger issue for me. All in all, here is another PCM-M10 owner, big thanx to everybody here for the guidance and opinions.

Well, as long as you're leaning back to the M10 -- I don't think there is necessarily anything to worry about regarding spectral information and stereo imaging regarding the M10's internal mics just because they are different in output level.

If they are relatively well matched with their relative output vs frequency and are just different in overall output, you shouldn't need to worry about anything other than matching up their output in post production.  Meaning, all you need to do is add 5db to the lower output mic and you should be fine.

If the mics do have different frequency responses (and mics that are matched in level could still be unmatched in frequency response), then you would need to correct them somehow in post to address overall level imbalance and frequency response imbalance.

As a starting point though, I wouldn't worry about spectral differences and would just add the 5db in post to the lower channel.  Hopefully this will correct your stereo image.

Thanks for the advice, appreciated.

[beatkilla]

Was wondering has any measured the low cut filter or know how steep it is?Was wondering about using it when running DSM mics direct into plug in power.

[beatkilla]

I guess my question above can not be answered,so how can  i measure the low cut filter myself on the Sony PCM m10?