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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: gossling on December 27, 2008, 02:42:09 AM
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Hello,
I have yet to buy and keep any recording equipment (though I have the Tascam GT-R1 and Zoom H2 with excellent return policies). I've read that, as far as recording chains go, microphones are arguably the most important element. I plan to do all of my recording (both in and out of concert, though almost all in the field) with this setup:
microphones -> external preamp -> recorder
I've heard great things about the DPA 4060 and classical music, which is what I'll primarily be recording. Well...classical/jazz, but usually with a small number of instrumentalists (from solo to octet). But I don't currently have the money for a pair of DPA 4060, so I've been looking for a reasonable substitute. The Church microphones are held in high regard here, and I've read posts comparing the two, so I was wondering how comparable the two actually are for my application. One major instrument I'll be recording is the cello (often solo), and I really need to pick up the deep resonances of the instrument.
Oh, and I also plan to do live sound reinforcement on my cello with whatever microphone I choose, so let me know if anything is incompatible in that field.
Any thoughts, experiences, samples, anything would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
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http://www.sendspace.com/file/uf93ln
ca14 omni sample
ca14 omni > ca9100 > h120
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I'd get the CA-14 omnis and use those for a while and then think hard if you really want/need to spend the $ on the DPA's.
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Get the CA14 ominis and if you don't like them and you think you can improve, sell them to me and get yourself a DPA set.
Conventional wisdom tells us that more money spend means a better recording. This really goes for anything. more money for a house = perfect. more money for a car = prettier. more money on a cell phone = better.
Its all subjective!! especially with sound, IMO.
I hope most people will say mic placement is the key for a great recording as well as good music and a pretty good pair of microphones and the recorder.
Good luck!
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Since you can't swing the DPAs yet anyway, go for the Church Audio. Haven't owned a pair, but I've heard great tapes made with them, & Chris is known for delivering great customer service.
The DPAs I do own, & consider them top-notch. Don't know that I'd want anything else.
You'll pay much more for the DPAs than for the CA. Just like you'll pay much more for a Corvette Z06 than for a Mustang GT. But you'll never convince a 'stang fan that the Z06 is better. :)
I doubt you'll be disappointed with the CA mics. And so much else goes into a good recording. Location, location, location. I've heard crappy tapes made with thousands of dollars worth of gear, and I've heard killer tapes made with cheap gear.
If you buy the CA & later decide you want DPAs, you'll have no trouble selling them.
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So it seems like the CA microphones are a reasonable substitution for the DPA 4060. So you all would go with the CA-14 omni? The thing I like about the CA-11 is the replaceable caps. I could go cardioid for live sound reinforcement and omni for recording. Is the CA-14 omni that big a step up from the CA-11 omni? The 9100 + CA-11 sale in the retail section seems like a good deal too.
How do these microphones compare with standard studio condenser microphones such as the Studio Project C4, Oktava MK-012, AT4041? Since discretion is not of very much importance for my application, would it just be better to go with these?
Thanks for all the replies
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You may want to check these out...I'm ordering a pair very soon
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-BMC-10
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So it seems like the CA microphones are a reasonable substitution for the DPA 4060. So you all would go with the CA-14 omni? The thing I like about the CA-11 is the replaceable caps. I could go cardioid for live sound reinforcement and omni for recording. Is the CA-14 omni that big a step up from the CA-11 omni? The 9100 + CA-11 sale in the retail section seems like a good deal too.
How do these microphones compare with standard studio condenser microphones such as the Studio Project C4, Oktava MK-012, AT4041? Since discretion is not of very much importance for my application, would it just be better to go with these?
Thanks for all the replies
listen to as many samples of the microphones as you can, and make your own determination. personally, i think the ca-14 omnis are quite a fine microphone, and am damn proud of the few recordings i have made with them. besides, buying from church audio, you are not only supporting a fellow TSer, but you also get a life time guarentee on the mics and the preamp.
i forget how to do it, but there is a way you can search the live music archive for microphone types.
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If you really have an itch to get the 4060s, you should just save up some money and spring for them now...You'll end up doing it sooner or later anyway, and you might as well make maximum use of your limited funds! If you really need something right away, go for the CA-11s (with both caps); that way, when the upgrade monster starts disturbing your sleep, you'll end up with a pair of cardioids in the collection too.
The DPAs are considerably more sensitive than the Church mics, which might come in handy when recording pianissimo cello solos. DPA also sells mounts specifically for mic'ing string instruments (although these little accessories are usually scandalously expensive). Another advantage is that when the upgrade monster starts in on your choice of recorder, you can also get a pair of XLR/phantom adaptors for the 4060s...
With respect to the cost issue: all other factors being equal, better equipment should yield better results...And quality and price are pretty well correlated. Not a perfect correlation, of course, and there are exceptions (in my opinion, the Church mics are a superb value), but you generally get what you pay for.
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I emailed Chris a while back about suitability of his products for acoustic/classical recording and as I recall his reply was that they would not work well for unamplified music. I do not recall if the reason was due to the mic sensitivity or due to the limited max gain of his preamp. I'd shoot him a line and talk to him directly about your specific needs.
Best wishes,
Ben
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If you really have an itch to get the 4060s, you should just save up some money and spring for them now...You'll end up doing it sooner or later anyway, and you might as well make maximum use of your limited funds! If you really need something right away, go for the CA-11s (with both caps); that way, when the upgrade monster starts disturbing your sleep, you'll end up with a pair of cardioids in the collection too.
The DPAs are considerably more sensitive than the Church mics, which might come in handy when recording pianissimo cello solos. DPA also sells mounts specifically for mic'ing string instruments (although these little accessories are usually scandalously expensive). Another advantage is that when the upgrade monster starts in on your choice of recorder, you can also get a pair of XLR/phantom adaptors for the 4060s...
With respect to the cost issue: all other factors being equal, better equipment should yield better results...And quality and price are pretty well correlated. Not a perfect correlation, of course, and there are exceptions (in my opinion, the Church mics are a superb value), but you generally get what you pay for.
agreed. if you think you'll stick around with this little money pit of a hobby, get the dpas now.
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I emailed Chris a while back about suitability of his products for acoustic/classical recording and as I recall his reply was that they would not work well for unamplified music. I do not recall if the reason was due to the mic sensitivity or due to the limited max gain of his preamp. I'd shoot him a line and talk to him directly about your specific needs.
Best wishes,
Ben
The ca-14 omni work great for acoustic recording. So does the ca-11 omni but the ca-14 omni is a much better mic so are my new Cafs mics if you need small.
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If you really have an itch to get the 4060s, you should just save up some money and spring for them now...You'll end up doing it sooner or later anyway, and you might as well make maximum use of your limited funds! If you really need something right away, go for the CA-11s (with both caps); that way, when the upgrade monster starts disturbing your sleep, you'll end up with a pair of cardioids in the collection too.
The DPAs are considerably more sensitive than the Church mics, which might come in handy when recording pianissimo cello solos. DPA also sells mounts specifically for mic'ing string instruments (although these little accessories are usually scandalously expensive). Another advantage is that when the upgrade monster starts in on your choice of recorder, you can also get a pair of XLR/phantom adaptors for the 4060s...
With respect to the cost issue: all other factors being equal, better equipment should yield better results...And quality and price are pretty well correlated. Not a perfect correlation, of course, and there are exceptions (in my opinion, the Church mics are a superb value), but you generally get what you pay for.
agreed. if you think you'll stick around with this little money pit of a hobby, get the dpas now.
Before you sink money into the DPA406x (or any expensive mic), make sure you like the sound! Listen to samples. I've got *a few* only at http://Soundmann.com. My opinion -- I don't like DPA406x for music recording. Ambient they sound unbelievable, but for music, I'm liking Countryman B3 a lot more. Of course everyone has a different opinion.
Richard
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If you really have an itch to get the 4060s, you should just save up some money and spring for them now...You'll end up doing it sooner or later anyway, and you might as well make maximum use of your limited funds! If you really need something right away, go for the CA-11s (with both caps); that way, when the upgrade monster starts disturbing your sleep, you'll end up with a pair of cardioids in the collection too.
The DPAs are considerably more sensitive than the Church mics, which might come in handy when recording pianissimo cello solos. DPA also sells mounts specifically for mic'ing string instruments (although these little accessories are usually scandalously expensive). Another advantage is that when the upgrade monster starts in on your choice of recorder, you can also get a pair of XLR/phantom adaptors for the 4060s...
With respect to the cost issue: all other factors being equal, better equipment should yield better results...And quality and price are pretty well correlated. Not a perfect correlation, of course, and there are exceptions (in my opinion, the Church mics are a superb value), but you generally get what you pay for.
agreed. if you think you'll stick around with this little money pit of a hobby, get the dpas now.
Before you sink money into the DPA406x (or any expensive mic), make sure you like the sound! Listen to samples. I've got *a few* only at http://Soundmann.com. My opinion -- I don't like DPA406x for music recording. Ambient they sound unbelievable, but for music, I'm liking Countryman B3 a lot more. Of course everyone has a different opinion.
Richard
The 4060's can run on low voltage, but are designed for phantom voltage. This is from the company website:
"Min. 5 V - max 50 V through DPA adapter", and,
"The Miniature Microphone's size taken into consideration DPA has obtained an outstanding noise floor of 23 dB(A) re. 20 µPa and an impressive sensitivity of 20 mV/Pa and if powered correctly, the microphone will be able to handle sound pressure levels up to 134 dB SPL before clipping occurs. A wide range of connection adapters makes it possible to use the Miniature Microphones with close to any professional wireless systems available plus 48 V Phantom. The Miniature Microphone DPA 4060 is winner of Product of the Year Award 1997 from TCI and nominated for a TEC award in 1997."
Yes, you can run it on a battery box. No, it is not as good as phantom. With the lower voltage I would suspect that it is not performing up to its designed potential. Countryman also specs phantom power, but may be better suited by its design to work at low voltages. I am just surprised to see the 406n down-rated. It has a pretty good rep. I am also attaching a PDF file by Onno Schultze on the 4061 which he is quite fond of. Onno is a Tonmeister and helped tune Schoeps latest mic, so a few people respect his expertise and opinion. But, what do I know? You might check out his short review of the mics.
-
If you really have an itch to get the 4060s, you should just save up some money and spring for them now...You'll end up doing it sooner or later anyway, and you might as well make maximum use of your limited funds! If you really need something right away, go for the CA-11s (with both caps); that way, when the upgrade monster starts disturbing your sleep, you'll end up with a pair of cardioids in the collection too.
The DPAs are considerably more sensitive than the Church mics, which might come in handy when recording pianissimo cello solos. DPA also sells mounts specifically for mic'ing string instruments (although these little accessories are usually scandalously expensive). Another advantage is that when the upgrade monster starts in on your choice of recorder, you can also get a pair of XLR/phantom adaptors for the 4060s...
With respect to the cost issue: all other factors being equal, better equipment should yield better results...And quality and price are pretty well correlated. Not a perfect correlation, of course, and there are exceptions (in my opinion, the Church mics are a superb value), but you generally get what you pay for.
agreed. if you think you'll stick around with this little money pit of a hobby, get the dpas now.
Before you sink money into the DPA406x (or any expensive mic), make sure you like the sound! Listen to samples. I've got *a few* only at http://Soundmann.com. My opinion -- I don't like DPA406x for music recording. Ambient they sound unbelievable, but for music, I'm liking Countryman B3 a lot more. Of course everyone has a different opinion.
Richard
The 4060's can run on low voltage, but are designed for phantom voltage. This is from the company website:
"Min. 5 V - max 50 V through DPA adapter", and,
"The Miniature Microphone's size taken into consideration DPA has obtained an outstanding noise floor of 23 dB(A) re. 20 µPa and an impressive sensitivity of 20 mV/Pa and if powered correctly, the microphone will be able to handle sound pressure levels up to 134 dB SPL before clipping occurs. A wide range of connection adapters makes it possible to use the Miniature Microphones with close to any professional wireless systems available plus 48 V Phantom. The Miniature Microphone DPA 4060 is winner of Product of the Year Award 1997 from TCI and nominated for a TEC award in 1997."
Yes, you can run it on a battery box. No, it is not as good as phantom. With the lower voltage I would suspect that it is not performing up to its designed potential. Countryman also specs phantom power, but may be better suited by its design to work at low voltages. I am just surprised to see the 406n down-rated. It has a pretty good rep. I am also attaching a PDF file by Onno Schultze on the 4061 which he is quite fond of. Onno is a Tonmeister and helped tune Schoeps latest mic, so a few people respect his expertise and opinion. But, what do I know? You might check out his short review of the mics.
Beg to disagree here. Battery can power the mics with two wires. I forget the voltage and current, but those have to be chosen together. I think it is 3.7v on the mic, but don't quote me on this. I built a battery box but I have since forget the resistor value.
Richard
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DPA 4061 and Audio-Technica ES943/O (sold as SP-CMC-8 by Sound Professionals) sound 99.9% identical to one another.
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-CMC-8
I made two recordings side-by-side this summer, and in an ABX I can't tell them apart unless I cheat. The biggest advantage of DPAs is that they're more than twice as small as the ATs.
The sensitivity of the ATs with low-sens mod is about halfway in between DPA 4060 and 4061, which is really perfect for for taping rock concerts. For taping something softer, you may not want the mod.
Just make sure you get the omni elements. Most people have CMC-8 cards, and that is a whole different thing!
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I have the SP-CMC-8's and I am sure glad to know I do not have to spend the big bucks to get DPA sound. Those Danish scammers out to be run out of town. ;D
On a more serious note, one observation - you - is a statistically small sampling. And one recording is not much of a sampling either. I am sure that you are sincere in your beliefs but to be a valid test would require more samples and more testers. As an example, suppose you recorded a show whose musicians sang into Shure SM58's and played the guitars into SM57's and had a so-so playback system. Hmmm. Yup, both the SP's and the DPA's would sound the same. But in a series of tests with acoustic sources the differences might show up. I know that the ad says they sound like the 4060's, but that don't make it so. The SP's are good mics, yes.
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If you really have an itch to get the 4060s, you should just save up some money and spring for them now...You'll end up doing it sooner or later anyway, and you might as well make maximum use of your limited funds! If you really need something right away, go for the CA-11s (with both caps); that way, when the upgrade monster starts disturbing your sleep, you'll end up with a pair of cardioids in the collection too.
The DPAs are considerably more sensitive than the Church mics, which might come in handy when recording pianissimo cello solos. DPA also sells mounts specifically for mic'ing string instruments (although these little accessories are usually scandalously expensive). Another advantage is that when the upgrade monster starts in on your choice of recorder, you can also get a pair of XLR/phantom adaptors for the 4060s...
With respect to the cost issue: all other factors being equal, better equipment should yield better results...And quality and price are pretty well correlated. Not a perfect correlation, of course, and there are exceptions (in my opinion, the Church mics are a superb value), but you generally get what you pay for.
agreed. if you think you'll stick around with this little money pit of a hobby, get the dpas now.
Before you sink money into the DPA406x (or any expensive mic), make sure you like the sound! Listen to samples. I've got *a few* only at http://Soundmann.com. My opinion -- I don't like DPA406x for music recording. Ambient they sound unbelievable, but for music, I'm liking Countryman B3 a lot more. Of course everyone has a different opinion.
Richard
The 4060's can run on low voltage, but are designed for phantom voltage. This is from the company website:
"Min. 5 V - max 50 V through DPA adapter", and,
"The Miniature Microphone's size taken into consideration DPA has obtained an outstanding noise floor of 23 dB(A) re. 20 µPa and an impressive sensitivity of 20 mV/Pa and if powered correctly, the microphone will be able to handle sound pressure levels up to 134 dB SPL before clipping occurs. A wide range of connection adapters makes it possible to use the Miniature Microphones with close to any professional wireless systems available plus 48 V Phantom. The Miniature Microphone DPA 4060 is winner of Product of the Year Award 1997 from TCI and nominated for a TEC award in 1997."
Yes, you can run it on a battery box. No, it is not as good as phantom. With the lower voltage I would suspect that it is not performing up to its designed potential. Countryman also specs phantom power, but may be better suited by its design to work at low voltages. I am just surprised to see the 406n down-rated. It has a pretty good rep. I am also attaching a PDF file by Onno Schultze on the 4061 which he is quite fond of. Onno is a Tonmeister and helped tune Schoeps latest mic, so a few people respect his expertise and opinion. But, what do I know? You might check out his short review of the mics.
Beg to disagree here. Battery can power the mics with two wires. I forget the voltage and current, but those have to be chosen together. I think it is 3.7v on the mic, but don't quote me on this. I built a battery box but I have since forget the resistor value.
Richard
Richard, if you ran the DPA's at the 3.7 volts you say your battery box puts out you ran it with too low voltage. DPA, as I quoted, says 5 - 50 volts. They do not recommend 5 volts, they say you can do it. I would doubt that in a studio recording they would run the mics at 5 volts. Most likely they would be run at 48, phantom voltage. BTW, I never said you could not power the mics with two wires. I never even mentioned it. All I said was that less than 48 volts is probably less than optimal voltage. It can be done, but may not be the best idea you ever had.
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Didn't we already go around this issue on another of your threads? The need for live sound reinforcement is a big requirement, I thought we discussed that already? That goes to your question about standard condensers like the Rode, AT, SP, etc.
Also, for live sound, are you looking for something instrument mounted or stand mounted? That makes a difference as well.
Hi again. Yeah, my mention of live sound reinforcement on this thread was more of a footnote than anything. I think we settled on that other thread that most of these small microphones (DPA, CA, SP) could be used for live sound, one way or another. This thread is really just to see if the CA's (or other microphones) are a sensible substitute for the DPA's, in both function and quality. And how all of these compare to the more standard "studio" microphones. If I were to use the small microphones, I'd go with instrument-mounting for mobility and discretion, but I'm willing to work both ways, depending on the microphone.
DPA 4061 and Audio-Technica ES943/O (sold as SP-CMC-8 by Sound Professionals) sound 99.9% identical to one another.
Do you happen to have samples of these? Aren't the 4061's and 4060's identical other than the lower sensitivity on the former? So is it safe to say that the SP-CMC-8s (high sensitivity) are very similar to the 4060's as well? And, to test the transitive property of microphone quality, has anyone compared recordings of the SP-CMC-8s with CA microphones?
Thanks for the recommendations, I'll check them out.
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If you really have an itch to get the 4060s, you should just save up some money and spring for them now...You'll end up doing it sooner or later anyway, and you might as well make maximum use of your limited funds! If you really need something right away, go for the CA-11s (with both caps); that way, when the upgrade monster starts disturbing your sleep, you'll end up with a pair of cardioids in the collection too.
The DPAs are considerably more sensitive than the Church mics, which might come in handy when recording pianissimo cello solos. DPA also sells mounts specifically for mic'ing string instruments (although these little accessories are usually scandalously expensive). Another advantage is that when the upgrade monster starts in on your choice of recorder, you can also get a pair of XLR/phantom adaptors for the 4060s...
With respect to the cost issue: all other factors being equal, better equipment should yield better results...And quality and price are pretty well correlated. Not a perfect correlation, of course, and there are exceptions (in my opinion, the Church mics are a superb value), but you generally get what you pay for.
agreed. if you think you'll stick around with this little money pit of a hobby, get the dpas now.
Before you sink money into the DPA406x (or any expensive mic), make sure you like the sound! Listen to samples. I've got *a few* only at http://Soundmann.com. My opinion -- I don't like DPA406x for music recording. Ambient they sound unbelievable, but for music, I'm liking Countryman B3 a lot more. Of course everyone has a different opinion.
Richard
The 4060's can run on low voltage, but are designed for phantom voltage. This is from the company website:
"Min. 5 V - max 50 V through DPA adapter", and,
"The Miniature Microphone's size taken into consideration DPA has obtained an outstanding noise floor of 23 dB(A) re. 20 µPa and an impressive sensitivity of 20 mV/Pa and if powered correctly, the microphone will be able to handle sound pressure levels up to 134 dB SPL before clipping occurs. A wide range of connection adapters makes it possible to use the Miniature Microphones with close to any professional wireless systems available plus 48 V Phantom. The Miniature Microphone DPA 4060 is winner of Product of the Year Award 1997 from TCI and nominated for a TEC award in 1997."
Yes, you can run it on a battery box. No, it is not as good as phantom. With the lower voltage I would suspect that it is not performing up to its designed potential. Countryman also specs phantom power, but may be better suited by its design to work at low voltages. I am just surprised to see the 406n down-rated. It has a pretty good rep. I am also attaching a PDF file by Onno Schultze on the 4061 which he is quite fond of. Onno is a Tonmeister and helped tune Schoeps latest mic, so a few people respect his expertise and opinion. But, what do I know? You might check out his short review of the mics.
Beg to disagree here. Battery can power the mics with two wires. I forget the voltage and current, but those have to be chosen together. I think it is 3.7v on the mic, but don't quote me on this. I built a battery box but I have since forget the resistor value.
Richard
Richard, if you ran the DPA's at the 3.7 volts you say your battery box puts out you ran it with too low voltage. DPA, as I quoted, says 5 - 50 volts. They do not recommend 5 volts, they say you can do it. I would doubt that in a studio recording they would run the mics at 5 volts. Most likely they would be run at 48, phantom voltage. BTW, I never said you could not power the mics with two wires. I never even mentioned it. All I said was that less than 48 volts is probably less than optimal voltage. It can be done, but may not be the best idea you ever had.
Are you talking about powering via an XLR module, or directly from a two-wire (microdot) connector?
Here is a file for powering the mic:
(http://Soundmann.com/minipower.gif)
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Richard, if you ran the DPA's at the 3.7 volts you say your battery box puts out you ran it with too low voltage. DPA, as I quoted, says 5 - 50 volts. They do not recommend 5 volts, they say you can do it. I would doubt that in a studio recording they would run the mics at 5 volts. Most likely they would be run at 48, phantom voltage. BTW, I never said you could not power the mics with two wires. I never even mentioned it. All I said was that less than 48 volts is probably less than optimal voltage. It can be done, but may not be the best idea you ever had.
This is incorrect.
All 406x mics are designed to run on 5v power. They will run fine on a bit more or less than that, such as typical 9v battery box power without problems but probably not a whole lot more. The available XLR adapters step down the 48v phantom to 5volts. If you were to plug them into 48v phantom without the step down adapter you'd probably let the magic smoke get out. They do need a bit more current than some other 'plug-in power' mics.
The odd one is the 4073 which is designed to run on a lower 3v supply, but it is not designed to be as flat in frequency response.
The primary attraction of the 4061 is a lower output signal from the less sensitive capsule that is compatible with typical wireless transmitters, a primary concern for theater and ENG user but not for most of us. The 4060 measures better than the 4061 in all aspects but max SPL (144db vs 134db), the most important being the lower noise floor. 134db is plenty for most anything I'll do with it.
[edit for sleeptyping]
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Richard, if you ran the DPA's at the 3.7 volts you say your battery box puts out you ran it with too low voltage. DPA, as I quoted, says 5 - 50 volts. They do not recommend 5 volts, they say you can do it. I would doubt that in a studio recording they would run the mics at 5 volts. Most likely they would be run at 48, phantom voltage. BTW, I never said you could not power the mics with two wires. I never even mentioned it. All I said was that less than 48 volts is probably less than optimal voltage. It can be done, but may not be the best idea you ever had.
This is incorrect.
All 406x mics are designed to run on 5v power. The available XLR adapters step down the 48v phantom to 5volts. They will run fine on typical 9v battery box power without problems as well but not more. If you were to plug them into 48v phantom without the step down adapter you'd probably let the magic smoke get out. They do need a bit more current than some other 'plug-in power' mics.
The odd one is the 4073 which is designed to run on a lower 3v supply, but it is not designed to be as flat in frequency response.
The primary attraction of the 4061 is a lower output signal from the less sensitive capsule that is compatible with typical wireless transmitters, a primary concern for theater and ENG user but not for most of us. The 4060 measures better than the 4061 in all aspects but max SPL (144db vs 134db), the most important being the lower noise floor. 134db is plenty for most anything I'll do with it.
The adapter may output 5v.
Question: did you measure the voltage on the mic. Ie., the adaptor under load? Perhaps this is where the 2.5V comes from? That is, when you hook up the mic you get 2.5V across the mic and 2.5V or so on a resitor *internal* to the phantom adapter.
Note that 3V supply is not enough. You need some volts to drop across the load resistor.
Richard
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The 4073 is a special mic built for transmitters that supply 3v.
I have two pairs of 4060. One set runs on the R-09s plug-in power, one set doesn't. What's the plug-in voltage on the R-09, like 3.5v?
I use them with either the DPA MMA6000 Preamp (5v) or church Uglies with Maha 9.6v rechargeables that typically measure 10.5 volts or so. I haven't measured the mic power voltage of the Uglies to see if they drop the voltage any.
[edit- I don't know what the 2.5v you mention is referring to]
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Richard, if you ran the DPA's at the 3.7 volts you say your battery box puts out you ran it with too low voltage. DPA, as I quoted, says 5 - 50 volts. They do not recommend 5 volts, they say you can do it. I would doubt that in a studio recording they would run the mics at 5 volts. Most likely they would be run at 48, phantom voltage. BTW, I never said you could not power the mics with two wires. I never even mentioned it. All I said was that less than 48 volts is probably less than optimal voltage. It can be done, but may not be the best idea you ever had.
This is incorrect.
<SNIP>
[edit for sleeptyping]
Right you are. It is a 5 volt device.
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The 4073 is a special mic built for transmitters that supply 3v.
I have two pairs of 4060. One set runs on the R-09s plug-in power, one set doesn't. What's the plug-in voltage on the R-09, like 3.5v?
I use them with either the DPA MMA6000 Preamp (5v) or church Uglies with Maha 9.6v rechargeables that typically measure 10.5 volts or so. I haven't measured the mic power voltage of the Uglies to see if they drop the voltage any.
[edit- I don't know what the 2.5v you mention is referring to]
I'm asking you to measure the voltage on the mic, when connected to the power supply. Can you do this? The open circuit voltage may be 5v, but the voltage under load should be quite a bit lower.
As far as the Edirol R09 goes, it has 2.5v of plug in power with a series (internal) 2.2k load resistor. Not enough volts/current for the DPA406x at all. But, I've been using this for a lot of mics (AT853, Church CA11, Sennheiser MKE40, MKE2, KE4, and Countryman B3) without problems.
Richard
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I'm asking you to measure the voltage on the mic, when connected to the power supply. Can you do this? The open circuit voltage may be 5v, but the voltage under load should be quite a bit lower.
Morning..
I can do that this weekend sometime if you like. I'll measure it with both preamps.
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I will say that after running the 4060 (HEB) for Sarah Brightman I was rather impressed on how responsive the mics were for the type of music that was played. I know Chris has quality mics but I don't have any field experience or have had his mics to give an impression of them. But I have heard many great recordings from them.
But as an owner of the 4060's I freaking love them. I was so glad I finally bought a good pair that were matched. I will probably never buy another pair of mics again.
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I have the SP-CMC-8's and I am sure glad to know I do not have to spend the big bucks to get DPA sound. Those Danish scammers out to be run out of town. ;D
On a more serious note, one observation - you - is a statistically small sampling. And one recording is not much of a sampling either. I am sure that you are sincere in your beliefs but to be a valid test would require more samples and more testers. As an example, suppose you recorded a show whose musicians sang into Shure SM58's and played the guitars into SM57's and had a so-so playback system. Hmmm. Yup, both the SP's and the DPA's would sound the same. But in a series of tests with acoustic sources the differences might show up. I know that the ad says they sound like the 4060's, but that don't make it so. The SP's are good mics, yes.
Well, I'm convinced that at a typical rock show, 4061s and CMC-8 omnis will sound virtually identical.
I realize I'm making a bold claim without anything to back it up at the moment, but I will eventually post some samples for everyone to hear.
As for Church Audio mics, I have absolutely no experience with them, especially omnis. Everything I've heard from them has always been cardioids...
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The 4060's can run on low voltage, but are ....
DPA`s Series 40XX are not for Phantom Voltage without any adapter. They simply need the 5 V Voltage for the FET. Its a Back Electret Design like all DPA`s. But the Fat Big ones works with 48 V some Models with 200 Volt - For maximum headroom driving the Amplifiers not for the condenser element.
The Power Supply is the source, if its grey and muddy the whole design/sound is not so nice. Only the purest white (Pwr Sply) has all the colors inhernet, the amplifier ( prism) will split in in many colors. This an simplified analogy...............
The DC Power with a low Impedance ( Sonnenschein Dry Fit) and Good Caps ( parallel 20 x 470 uf 16 V Rubycon Z & striped off the Plastic foil) The Mic will sound very very good.
LION is bad for sound High Impedance and some electronic parts in it. Not Top Notch for Sound but light.
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Oh my dear, are Apples or Oranges better? This AT`s are Cardoids and not the in the same as DPA 40XX with superperfect Omni Polardiagrams + it will never never sound like an omni, are you kidding? Please use Q Tips :-) Also they distort a lot more.
What is the meaning of "run correctly" ? Not upside down like on the AT Website?
Do you really think a Pro would use thise AT Choir miks? But may Pro`s ( Onno Schulze Philips) working with the 40XX. Nothing against other AT Miks I have 4x AT 3032 and 7x AT 3031. and I like them very much.
From the DPA Microphone University
Off-axis colouration
A directional microphone (the cardioid is mostly used) has - as its name implies - a directional response, with a coverage angle of approx. 130°. Sounds from the rear are at its maximum attenuated by some 30 dB but this attenuation is dependent of frequency. In other words, the cardioid might have a nice flat frequency response on-axis, but off-axis this may not be the case. In fact, some directional microphones have a notably poor off-axis response. This means that sounds entering the microphone from the sides and the rear are more or less strongly coloured - the industry names this "the curtain effect".
Even though the sound is attenuated to the sides and the rear, it will still affect the overall sound and make the reproduction more muddy or less authentic.Be sure to use a directional microphone with a clean off-axis response. The DPA cardioid types will deal with this situation in the most clean and authentic way.
Many engineers are afraid of using omnidirectional microphones in a multi microphone setup with several musicians or sound sources. "Leakage" seems to be the buzzword that is often heard in such situations and, without even trying anything else, directional mics are by habit chosen. A cardioid may be the right choice, but often an omni would give a better performance, because of its sonic qualities, low handling-, wind- and pop-noise and lack of proximity effect.
Furthermore, the "leakage" in a DPA omni will sound more natural. Leakage is only a problem if it sounds bad. If the leakage from one sound source in another microphone sounds natural, it can purely be beneficial in the way that it adds natural room tone to the character of the sound source. All DPA Microphones - directional and omnidirectional - have an extremely smooth and natural off-axis response. The microphone will not only sound good on axis but also off-axis. Hereby we offer the engineer the possibility to achieve more honest and natural pick ups and a better tool to adapt his miking technique.
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Oh my dear, are Apples or Oranges better? This AT`s are Cardoids and not the in the same as DPA 40XX with superperfect Omni Polardiagrams + it will never never sound like an omni, are you kidding? Please use Q Tips :-)
Excuse me?
http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/b31ed9966bc83c9c/index.html
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/AT-P12100
::)
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^^^ Simmer down, simmer down... ;)
He might have mis-read your post a bit, but you're the one posting about 4061's vs. SP-CMC-8's for loud rock...
Well, I'm convinced that at a typical rock show, 4061s and CMC-8 omnis will sound virtually identical.
...in a thread about 4060's vs. Church stuff for recording cello...
I've heard great things about the DPA 4060 and classical music, which is what I'll primarily be recording. Well...classical/jazz, but usually with a small number of instrumentalists (from solo to octet). But I don't currently have the money for a pair of DPA 4060, so I've been looking for a reasonable substitute. The Church microphones are held in high regard here, and I've read posts comparing the two, so I was wondering how comparable the two actually are for my application. One major instrument I'll be recording is the cello (often solo), and I really need to pick up the deep resonances of the instrument.
Oh, and I also plan to do live sound reinforcement on my cello with whatever microphone I choose, so let me know if anything is incompatible in that field.
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O Jes AT 934 is an Omni but take a look at ther weird Polar Pattern. And the DPA`s have a Impedance wich is 1/10 of the AT`s. We have checked it it against the Reference DPA 4006, it was a bit Hyped to Hifi and not Music. I have used 40XX for a Swiss Cinema Movie and it was fantastic results straight out of the box. Choir of 2-80 Poeple in Churches and in smaller Rooms with Jazz an Big Monochords. 40XX is Killer state of the Art but take the grills away and use some Equalizing +3 db 14 KHz.
http://www.johleundwerche.ch/johlendwerche/Index.html
Quote:
it's a little easier to make a good omni at a certain price point than to make an "equally good" (whatever that may mean specifically) directional microphone.
One basic thing to understand about omnidirectional microphones is that most of them aren't omnidirectional at all frequencies--their pickup pattern becomes narrower at high frequencies. This is because their physical size (even the usual "small" studio quality microphones of 20 - 22 mm diameter) obstructs the short wavelengths of high frequency sound. Smaller omni microphones are available, but they tend to be noisier than the best of the "usual" small microphones. So while some people prefer them, in some cases quite passionately, they aren't right for every engineer or application and are still something of a special taste.
Now if the pickup pattern becomes narrower at high frequencies, that means that sound picked up in front of the microphone will have more high-frequency energy than sound picked up from all other angles. And that can be a good thing in itself--say if you are recording from a considerable distance in a reverberant room and you want to pick up distinctly more detail from the sounds on stage than from the echoes in the hall. It does mean, however, that even though a microphone is called "omni," you still have to aim it properly! But many classic mono recordings and broadcasts were made back in the 1940s and '50s with just one well-placed pressure microphone picking up an entire orchestra, or even an entire opera performance.
Since you have to back the microphone well away from the stage in order to get a good overall balance that way (i.e. not emphasize whoever's in front and at the center too much), the microphones designed for this type of pickup generally had more or less flat "overall" response. But given the fact that the on-axis response at high frequencies must be greater than the response for all other angles, this meant that their on-axis response showed a considerable rise at high frequencies--often 8 dB or so around 9 or 10 kHz. This is called a "diffuse-field equalized" pressure microphone, and some examples of it today would be the Neumann KM 183 or KM 130, the Schoeps CMC 33, CMC 53 or CMC 63, or any of the microphones in which a small pressure transducer is embedded in a somewhat larger sphere (the prototype being the "classic" Neumann M 50).
At the opposite end of the spectrum would be an omni microphone designed for flat on-axis response--a "free-field equalized" microphone. It's useful in the extreme opposite situation: close miking. Given the narrowing of the pattern at high frequencies, this can only be achieved with a corresponding rolloff of off-axis response at high frequencies. I will be recording a concert with a pair of this type of microphone in a few hours; I haven't got much choice about where the microphones must go in the hall, since it is at a foreign consulate where certain security rules are paramount, and the microphones will be receiving much more direct sound than I normally prefer. So I plan on using a pair of Schoeps CMC 52, a type which I don't often use (though musicians generally like the sound a lot). They are as flat on axis as any measurement microphones that I know of. The closest equivalent type from Neumann would be the model KM 131.
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The [DPA microdot-XLR] adapter may output 5v.
Question: did you measure the voltage on the mic. Ie., the adaptor under load? Perhaps this is where the 2.5V comes from? That is, when you hook up the mic you get 2.5V across the mic and 2.5V or so on a resitor *internal* to the phantom adapter.
Note that 3V supply is not enough. You need some volts to drop across the load resistor.
I have two pairs of 4060. One set runs on the R-09s plug-in power, one set doesn't. What's the plug-in voltage on the R-09, like 3.5v?
I use them with either the DPA MMA6000 Preamp (5v) or church Uglies with Maha 9.6v rechargeables that typically measure 10.5 volts or so. I haven't measured the mic power voltage of the Uglies to see if they drop the voltage any.
[edit- I don't know what the 2.5v you mention is referring to.
I'm asking you to measure the voltage on the mic, when connected to the power supply. Can you do this? The open circuit voltage may be 5v, but the voltage under load should be quite a bit lower.
As far as the Edirol R09 goes, it has 2.5v of plug in power with a series (internal) 2.2k load resistor. Not enough volts/current for the DPA406x at all. But, I've been using this for a lot of mics (AT853, Church CA11, Sennheiser MKE40, MKE2, KE4, and Countryman B3) without problems.
I can do that this weekend sometime if you like. I'll measure it with both preamps.
Richard, my apologies, this took me a week to get around to. Let me know what this means to you as my strong suit isn't electrical engineering-
DPA 4060
33k ohms - resistance measured across mic
Church Audio UGLY preamp powered with '9.6v' rechargable NiMH battery measured at 10.2V charged
15ma - preamp's current draw through battery (mics attached, preamp output disconnected)
7.5V - open circuit mic power voltage
0.74mA - current draw through DPA 4060
2.8V - Voltage drop across DPA 4060
DPA MMA6000 preamp powered with '9.6v' rechargable NiMH battery measured at 10.2V charged
13mA - preamp's current draw through battery (mics attached, preamp output disconnected)
8.9v - open circuit mic power voltage
0.92mA - current draw through DPA 4060
2.8V - Voltage drop across DPA 4060
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The [DPA microdot-XLR] adapter may output 5v.
Question: did you measure the voltage on the mic. Ie., the adaptor under load? Perhaps this is where the 2.5V comes from? That is, when you hook up the mic you get 2.5V across the mic and 2.5V or so on a resitor *internal* to the phantom adapter.
Note that 3V supply is not enough. You need some volts to drop across the load resistor.
I have two pairs of 4060. One set runs on the R-09s plug-in power, one set doesn't. What's the plug-in voltage on the R-09, like 3.5v?
I use them with either the DPA MMA6000 Preamp (5v) or church Uglies with Maha 9.6v rechargeables that typically measure 10.5 volts or so. I haven't measured the mic power voltage of the Uglies to see if they drop the voltage any.
[edit- I don't know what the 2.5v you mention is referring to.
I'm asking you to measure the voltage on the mic, when connected to the power supply. Can you do this? The open circuit voltage may be 5v, but the voltage under load should be quite a bit lower.
As far as the Edirol R09 goes, it has 2.5v of plug in power with a series (internal) 2.2k load resistor. Not enough volts/current for the DPA406x at all. But, I've been using this for a lot of mics (AT853, Church CA11, Sennheiser MKE40, MKE2, KE4, and Countryman B3) without problems.
I can do that this weekend sometime if you like. I'll measure it with both preamps.
Richard, my appologies, this took me a week to get around to. Let me know what this means to you as my strong suit isn't electrical engineering-
DPA 4060
33k ohms - resistance measured across mic
Church Audio UGLY preamp powered with '9.6v' rechargable NiMH battery measured at 10.2V charged
15ma - preamp's current draw through battery (mics attached, preamp output disconnected)
7.5V - open curcuit mic power voltage
0.74mA - current draw through DPA 4060
2.8V - Voltage drop across DPA 4060
DPA MMA6000 preamp powered with '9.6v' rechargable NiMH battery measured at 10.2V charged
13mA - preamp's current draw through battery (mics attached, preamp output disconnected)
8.9v - open curcuit mic power voltage
0.92mA - current draw through DPA 4060
2.8V - Voltage drop across DPA 4060
Thanks, Gut!
Yep, the mic seems to want 2.8V across it, and it will adjust the current (within reason) to make that happen. It would be interesting to know what is inside the capsule itself. There is obviously something more than just a FET. Probably a FET followed by a second "driving" transistor. The advantage of this is the wire can be very long, and the mic can drive low impedance inputs.
So, in plain language, you need at least 5V to drive these mics, with the resistor adjusted to give approx 2.8V at 0.7mA.
Thanks for the measurements...
Richard
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Makes sense, as they offer rather long extension cables for these mics that are longer than most 'plug in power' type mic cables.
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O Jes AT 934 is an Omni but take a look at ther weird Polar Pattern. And the DPA`s have a Impedance wich is 1/10 of the AT`s. We have checked it it against the Reference DPA 4006, it was a bit Hyped to Hifi and not Music. I have used 40XX for a Swiss Cinema Movie and it was fantastic results straight out of the box. Choir of 2-80 Poeple in Churches and in smaller Rooms with Jazz an Big Monochords. 40XX is Killer state of the Art but take the grills away and use some Equalizing +3 db 14 KHz.
Ok... I have nothing against technical specs like this, but I think one's ears are the best thing in analyzing the comparison I was talking about.
Anyway, I realize my comments are not 100% relevant to the matter at hand, so I've create a new topic about the difference between DPA 4061s to CMC-8 omnis:
http://www.taperssection.com/index.php/topic,115418
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DPA 4060
33k ohms - resistance measured across mic
Church Audio UGLY preamp powered with '9.6v' rechargable NiMH battery measured at 10.2V charged
15ma - preamp's current draw through battery (mics attached, preamp output disconnected)
7.5V - open circuit mic power voltage
0.74mA - current draw through DPA 4060
2.8V - Voltage drop across DPA 4060
DPA MMA6000 preamp powered with '9.6v' rechargable NiMH battery measured at 10.2V charged
13mA - preamp's current draw through battery (mics attached, preamp output disconnected)
8.9v - open circuit mic power voltage
0.92mA - current draw through DPA 4060
2.8V - Voltage drop across DPA 4060
Please forgive a newbie question, but, does the above give an indication that one or other of these devices is better for driving the DPA 4060 mics? Or does anyone have an opinion about that?
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Ether of those preamps will power the mics properly. Both sound clean. The DPA has more available gain, but the 4060s are sensitive enough to never need that extra gain range even for quiet acoustics and nature recording IME, since if you really need that much additional gain the noise of the mics becomes a problem. The MMA6000 is is easier to adjust accurately and to can match channel levels in the field since the gain pots are marked and are 'detented' in 2.5db increments. It also has a few other things the CA-Ugly doesn't like a very good 'low-battery warning light' that gives plenty of warning, possibly longer runtime on a 9v, and a low-cut switch (which I never use).
The CA-Ugly's strong suit is it's incredibly small size and it's lower price, it is harder to adjust and has no low battery warning. Without 'detents' on the gain controls it can be adjusted to balance the levels of mics with slightly different sensitivities as long as you don't touch the gain after that calibration.
They both work well and sound great with the 4060s so the choice depends more on what you use them for and which of those features are important to you.
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Right.. but um, where did the 5v figure you're correcting come from Moke?
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maybe from illconditioned's post above...
So, in plain language, you need at least 5V to drive these mics, with the resistor adjusted to give approx 2.8V at 0.7mA.
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Ok. Now that I go back I see that I also guessed at the MMA6000 mic supply voltage being around 5v before I actually got around measuring it.. sure enough 8.9v
Apologies for any confusion.